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coogrfan · 06-23-2004, 10:21 AM

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Graphik said:

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coogrfan said:

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TheBadazz said:
Boy one thing I love to see is when a Madden player push and hold speed burst and they start charging up. They always say he's not going faster. Then I have to tell them 2K series don't have a lazy "turbo" button, it has a "Speed burst" button there's a difference.

No, in the 2k series you have the absurd spectacle of a players top speed being dependant on a gamers ability to rapidly tap buttons. Why should Michael Vick run faster for you than he can for me simply because you're better at button mashing? Imo that sort of arcade nonsense is out of place in a game as sim-oriented as this one.

One thing I feel about the speed burst bottons is with ESPN, I actually feel like I'm in charge of the runners speed. Its nothing like being in a footrace to the endzone against a defensive player and your botton mashing actually feels like you're doing the running. I did'nt like the botton mashing at first until I got into that very scenario.

Madden does'nt really bother me also but its not as immersive as ESPN in terms of getting a speed burst. And thats what seperates Madden from ESPN IMO, immersivness.

That's a valid point. I understand why some people like it, I just don't care for it. Would you at least agree that basing a player's top speed on a gamers button-mashing skills is sort of questionable from a simulation standpoint?

Anaxamander · 06-23-2004, 10:31 AM

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coogrfan said:

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sanders said:
The controls for Madden aren't better - I hate having speed burst be one button for offense and another button for defense.

As far a copying Madden that just a dumb idea (no intent to offend) because even if Madden does it well I bet it can be done better. As soon as you start copying your no longer innovating. I would like to see more in Franchise mode yes for sure. I like where VC is going in Franchise better than Madden - instead of Owners mode - you can train for your upcoming matchup and up players stats that you want. You really need to use 3 receiver sets - work on the WRs. Sounds cool.

If anyone should copy anyone both VC and EA should copy the offseason and play-create features of the old PC Football Game Front Page Sports Football. You can focus on areas of your game in the offseason and literally create any kind of play you wanted - any kind of WR route - anything.

The reason the speed burst buttons are different on off. and def. is because most longtime Madden players are used to it being that way. However, EA did include alternate button configs that allow you to have them both on the same button if you want, so this isn't a legitimate gripe.

Except when EA screws up the controls schemes. I can't remember if it was NCAA or Madden last year, but in one of the two I tried to use an alternate control scheme (PS2) and found out that one of my jukes didn't work at all and my other juke was completely different than a normal one. Does anyone remember that?

feeq14 · 06-23-2004, 10:33 AM

I think to base any aspect of skill in the game on a players ability to mash buttons is rather absurd. i mean that was going on waaaaay back with Tecmo Bowl.............TECMO BOWL!!!!! in 1986. hopefully there are people posting who remember that game. Either way it was like the First Ever NFL football game. it doesnt make any sense that we are going to be using skills from tecmo bowl to play a football game almost 20 years down the line that has all these other advancements but still cant figure out a way to go faster and break tackles. I really think that madden has this right i mean if you whatch ESPN and watch as you speed burst and your player makes little jerky quick movements as he slides acroos the field due to the eratic tapping of the speed burts whereas in madden it really looks like a player is sprinting on the actual ground his feet are supposed to be touching. The Speed tapping is one of the reasons why the running in ESPN looks so bad

coogrfan · 06-23-2004, 10:44 AM

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Anaxamander said:

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coogrfan said:

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sanders said:
The controls for Madden aren't better - I hate having speed burst be one button for offense and another button for defense.

As far a copying Madden that just a dumb idea (no intent to offend) because even if Madden does it well I bet it can be done better. As soon as you start copying your no longer innovating. I would like to see more in Franchise mode yes for sure. I like where VC is going in Franchise better than Madden - instead of Owners mode - you can train for your upcoming matchup and up players stats that you want. You really need to use 3 receiver sets - work on the WRs. Sounds cool.

If anyone should copy anyone both VC and EA should copy the offseason and play-create features of the old PC Football Game Front Page Sports Football. You can focus on areas of your game in the offseason and literally create any kind of play you wanted - any kind of WR route - anything.

The reason the speed burst buttons are different on off. and def. is because most longtime Madden players are used to it being that way. However, EA did include alternate button configs that allow you to have them both on the same button if you want, so this isn't a legitimate gripe.

Except when EA screws up the controls schemes. I can't remember if it was NCAA or Madden last year, but in one of the two I tried to use an alternate control scheme (PS2) and found out that one of my jukes didn't work at all and my other juke was completely different than a normal one. Does anyone remember that?

Never had that problem, but I don't use the alternate configs much(the only one I've ever used on a reg. basis is the Madden variant in NCAA, I find it works really well for teams that run pro-style offenses). Can you narrow down which config you were using(i.e. was it one with speed burst being the same on off. & def.?).

EDIT:I just reread my last couple of posts and realized I'm sort of dragging this thread off it's intended subject. Sorry.

feeq14 · 06-23-2004, 10:46 AM

Heres something interesting related to this topic that i found in an article at IGN.com

3. Might as well Jump: Gone is the hurdle button. That's right, jumping up and trying to kick your opponent in the nuts is out of the game…well, sort of. In the past, hitting the hurdle button could actually help keep defenders from tackling you, a kind of "running glitch" widely used by top players. Now, when you hit the button formerly known as hurdle, your runner will cover the ball with two hands and barrel forward attempting to break tackles. Players will still hurdle over the defense when a defender is on the ground, but now it is simply a contextual animation and not something the user controls. After hours of gameplay, this is proven to be a brilliant move as you will no longer be tripped up by a defender face down in the turf.

Boilerbuzz · 06-23-2004, 10:48 AM

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feeq14 said:
I not saying that they should change the game. but they should ad least take the things that are done better in madden and try to implement them. Really Madden could also do the same.

Looks like Madden has. I could have sworn they said they wouldn't copy Sega ideas: Just look at #3. Can you say auto-hurdle?!

http://sports.ign.com/articles/525/525508p1.html

I think ESPN is doing the same in a way. First, their alternate control scheme is a copy of Madden's. Secondly, they are adding more momentum into the game. But that's just about the only copying so far. It's been the most wanted change though. Sega seems to be more about giving the user total control. Maybe too much. That may change this year. We'll see.

Speaking of that list, there's nothing "new" outside of #6 and #8. I wonder how much people would like those changes. I'd like #6 from a defensive standpoint, but I'd hate it on offense. I don't think I'd like #8 at all.

bucs44 · 06-23-2004, 12:24 PM

Yes I think VC needs to let stats and player ability along with a physics system control running and tackling RATHER than meter fill-ups and button mashing.
Controlling when to perform moves like jukes, spins is ok but when performed it should depend on player ability (size, speed, strength, agility,etc)
This way you are getting a true sim like Higgh Heat did with baseball.

Graphik · 06-23-2004, 12:51 PM

Quote:

bucs44 said:
Yes I think VC needs to let stats and player ability along with a physics system control running and tackling RATHER than meter fill-ups and button mashing.
Controlling when to perform moves like jukes, spins is ok but when performed it should depend on player ability (size, speed, strength, agility,etc)
This way you are getting a true sim like Higgh Heat did with baseball.

Thats where I think the beauty of the game lies. Not the botton mashing thoguh, I mean the fact that you have all these options while running. I also dont dig the meter fill up thing but I can see its purpose. And as for the spins, jukes and the like, you'll be punished for attempting them with the wrong players.

06-23-2004, 10:21 AM	#25
coogrfan #HTownTakeover #YWCF OVR: 27 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 15,576	Re: Make it a little more like madden Quote: *Graphik said:* Quote: *coogrfan said:* Quote: *TheBadazz said:* Boy one thing I love to see is when a Madden player push and hold speed burst and they start charging up. They always say he's not going faster. Then I have to tell them 2K series don't have a lazy "turbo" button, it has a "Speed burst" button there's a difference. No, in the 2k series you have the absurd spectacle of a players top speed being dependant on a gamers ability to rapidly tap buttons. Why should Michael Vick run faster for you than he can for me simply because you're better at button mashing? Imo that sort of arcade nonsense is out of place in a game as sim-oriented as this one. One thing I feel about the speed burst bottons is with ESPN, I actually feel like I'm in charge of the runners speed. Its nothing like being in a footrace to the endzone against a defensive player and your botton mashing actually feels like you're doing the running. I did'nt like the botton mashing at first until I got into that very scenario. Madden does'nt really bother me also but its not as immersive as ESPN in terms of getting a speed burst. And thats what seperates Madden from ESPN IMO, immersivness. That's a valid point. I understand why some people like it, I just don't care for it. Would you at least agree that basing a player's top speed on a gamers button-mashing skills is sort of questionable from a simulation standpoint?

06-23-2004, 10:31 AM	#26
Anaxamander Imperator OVR: 19 Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Oklahoma City Posts: 2,795	Re: Make it a little more like madden Quote: *coogrfan said:* Quote: *sanders said:* The controls for Madden aren't better - I hate having speed burst be one button for offense and another button for defense. As far a copying Madden that just a dumb idea (no intent to offend) because even if Madden does it well I bet it can be done better. As soon as you start copying your no longer innovating. I would like to see more in Franchise mode yes for sure. I like where VC is going in Franchise better than Madden - instead of Owners mode - you can train for your upcoming matchup and up players stats that you want. You really need to use 3 receiver sets - work on the WRs. Sounds cool. If anyone should copy anyone both VC and EA should copy the offseason and play-create features of the old PC Football Game Front Page Sports Football. You can focus on areas of your game in the offseason and literally create any kind of play you wanted - any kind of WR route - anything. The reason the speed burst buttons are different on off. and def. is because most longtime Madden players are used to it being that way. However, EA did include alternate button configs that allow you to have them both on the same button if you want, so this isn't a legitimate gripe. Except when EA screws up the controls schemes. I can't remember if it was NCAA or Madden last year, but in one of the two I tried to use an alternate control scheme (PS2) and found out that one of my jukes didn't work at all and my other juke was completely different than a normal one. Does anyone remember that?

06-23-2004, 10:33 AM	#27
feeq14 MVP OVR: 15 Join Date: Jun 2004	Re: Make it a little more like madden I think to base any aspect of skill in the game on a players ability to mash buttons is rather absurd. i mean that was going on waaaaay back with Tecmo Bowl.............TECMO BOWL!!!!! in 1986. hopefully there are people posting who remember that game. Either way it was like the First Ever NFL football game. it doesnt make any sense that we are going to be using skills from tecmo bowl to play a football game almost 20 years down the line that has all these other advancements but still cant figure out a way to go faster and break tackles. I really think that madden has this right i mean if you whatch ESPN and watch as you speed burst and your player makes little jerky quick movements as he slides acroos the field due to the eratic tapping of the speed burts whereas in madden it really looks like a player is sprinting on the actual ground his feet are supposed to be touching. The Speed tapping is one of the reasons why the running in ESPN looks so bad

06-23-2004, 10:44 AM	#28
coogrfan #HTownTakeover #YWCF OVR: 27 Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 15,576	Re: Make it a little more like madden Quote: *Anaxamander said:* Quote: *coogrfan said:* Quote: *sanders said:* The controls for Madden aren't better - I hate having speed burst be one button for offense and another button for defense. As far a copying Madden that just a dumb idea (no intent to offend) because even if Madden does it well I bet it can be done better. As soon as you start copying your no longer innovating. I would like to see more in Franchise mode yes for sure. I like where VC is going in Franchise better than Madden - instead of Owners mode - you can train for your upcoming matchup and up players stats that you want. You really need to use 3 receiver sets - work on the WRs. Sounds cool. If anyone should copy anyone both VC and EA should copy the offseason and play-create features of the old PC Football Game Front Page Sports Football. You can focus on areas of your game in the offseason and literally create any kind of play you wanted - any kind of WR route - anything. The reason the speed burst buttons are different on off. and def. is because most longtime Madden players are used to it being that way. However, EA did include alternate button configs that allow you to have them both on the same button if you want, so this isn't a legitimate gripe. Except when EA screws up the controls schemes. I can't remember if it was NCAA or Madden last year, but in one of the two I tried to use an alternate control scheme (PS2) and found out that one of my jukes didn't work at all and my other juke was completely different than a normal one. Does anyone remember that? Never had that problem, but I don't use the alternate configs much(the only one I've ever used on a reg. basis is the Madden variant in NCAA, I find it works really well for teams that run pro-style offenses). Can you narrow down which config you were using(i.e. was it one with speed burst being the same on off. & def.?). EDIT:I just reread my last couple of posts and realized I'm sort of dragging this thread off it's intended subject. Sorry.

06-23-2004, 10:46 AM	#29
feeq14 MVP OVR: 15 Join Date: Jun 2004	Re: Make it a little more like madden Heres something interesting related to this topic that i found in an article at IGN.com 3. Might as well Jump: Gone is the hurdle button. That's right, jumping up and trying to kick your opponent in the nuts is out of the game…well, sort of. In the past, hitting the hurdle button could actually help keep defenders from tackling you, a kind of "running glitch" widely used by top players. Now, when you hit the button formerly known as hurdle, your runner will cover the ball with two hands and barrel forward attempting to break tackles. Players will still hurdle over the defense when a defender is on the ground, but now it is simply a contextual animation and not something the user controls. After hours of gameplay, this is proven to be a brilliant move as you will no longer be tripped up by a defender face down in the turf.

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06-23-2004, 10:48 AM	#30
Boilerbuzz D* Brs! OVR: 28** Join Date: Jul 2002 Posts: 5,155 Blog Entries: 1	Re: Make it a little more like madden Quote: *feeq14 said:* I not saying that they should change the game. but they should ad least take the things that are done better in madden and try to implement them. Really Madden could also do the same. Looks like Madden has. I could have sworn they said they wouldn't copy Sega ideas: Just look at #3. Can you say auto-hurdle?! http://sports.ign.com/articles/525/525508p1.html I think ESPN is doing the same in a way. First, their alternate control scheme is a copy of Madden's. Secondly, they are adding more momentum into the game. But that's just about the only copying so far. It's been the most wanted change though. Sega seems to be more about giving the user total control. Maybe too much. That may change this year. We'll see. Speaking of that list, there's nothing "new" outside of #6 and #8. I wonder how much people would like those changes. I'd like #6 from a defensive standpoint, but I'd hate it on offense. I don't think I'd like #8 at all.

06-23-2004, 12:24 PM	#31
bucs44 Pro OVR: 7 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: Make it a little more like madden Yes I think VC needs to let stats and player ability along with a physics system control running and tackling RATHER than meter fill-ups and button mashing. Controlling when to perform moves like jukes, spins is ok but when performed it should depend on player ability (size, speed, strength, agility,etc) This way you are getting a true sim like Higgh Heat did with baseball.

06-23-2004, 12:51 PM	#32
Graphik Prsnr#70460649 OVR: 22* Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Chi-Town, Ill-State Posts: 10,580	Re: Make it a little more like madden Quote: *bucs44 said:* Yes I think VC needs to let stats and player ability along with a physics system control running and tackling RATHER than meter fill-ups and button mashing. Controlling when to perform moves like jukes, spins is ok but when performed it should depend on player ability (size, speed, strength, agility,etc) This way you are getting a true sim like Higgh Heat did with baseball. Thats where I think the beauty of the game lies. Not the botton mashing thoguh, I mean the fact that you have all these options while running. I also dont dig the meter fill up thing but I can see its purpose. And as for the spins, jukes and the like, you'll be punished for attempting them with the wrong players.

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Make it a little more like madden