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seanmac · 07-12-2004, 12:03 AM

Quote:

Triton said:
Wow, you should be a scout. Clearly from your couch you are able to see things that pro scouts are missing. Good job!

Um, okay, here's a professional scout (btw, squint, you can't seriously be comparing River's arm strength with David Carr). From the Huddle Report, one of the better draft sites on the net.

Strengths
Philip Rivers is an excellent college player. He is an excellent athlete.* He has excellent size, is fluid in his movements in and out of the pocket and is as fast as the best TE’s. He has excellent command of the game plan. He makes the players around him better and has good leadership skills.

Needs to Improve
I'm not going to bother with telling you he needs better mechanics because he throws side arm. I am going to tell you that know matter what Philip Rivers does that his arm will never be strong enough to be an NFL STARTING QB. There I said it…go-ahead throw things at me. I can take it.

Bottom Line
Now, stop yelling at the profile guy. I know it is not what you Philip River fans wanted to hear, but it is the truth. He can be an excellent backup QB but not a starter. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking he can play in the west coast offense. To be successful, that offense has to have the threat of a strong arm. Let's be honest, the most success that the WCO has had is with Steve Young and Brett Farve. Contrary to popular belief, Joe Montana had a damn good arm too. If the WCO QB does not have a strong arm, the CB’s will sit on the short routes and in the big games, WCO teams will lose. (See Seattle vs. Green Bay playoff game Jan. 4, 2004.) The longer Philip Rivers is on the field, the more problems he will have with interceptions. Now cover your eyes if you are a fan of Philips. Here I go! I feel that Philip has the athletic talent to be an impact pass catching TE in the NFL. If he wants to be an impact player in the NFL, he will have to change positions. He should go in the third or fourth round at the earliest. Please no yelling at the profile guy.
*
The Bottom to the Bottom Line - 04/12/04
In looking back on this profile I do have to apologize for being so rough on Philip. That being said I have not changed my mind or my profile. In fact in my opinion Philip has the same positives and negatives to his game as Matt Mauck QB LSU. (See Profile) I think that the scouts and GM’s that have promoted the possibility that Philip will be taken in the first round should be ashamed of themselves. Everytime I go back to the film and see Philip throw the ball down after down no longer then 10 to 12 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I look at a whole game and never once see him throw a ball to the sidelines more then 15 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I see Philip throw the ball about 30 yds off the line of scrimmage but only down the middle of the field and never deep with any velocity, I shake my head. You are being fooled because this kid is an excellent manager of a game plan, into thinking that it is possible for him to be a starting QB in the NFL. Those of you who think this I have two words for you, Danny Wuerffel.

seanmac · 07-12-2004, 12:13 AM

Quote:

eXperiment63 said:
This reminds so much of Brady discussions I have had.

Brady is Bar-None, the best Quarterback in the league. Don't come at me with the Peyton Manning-Steve McNair stats. The last time I checked, the Quarterbacks job is to lead his team to victory, not pile up the best stats in the league. Brady leads his team to victory much better than any other Quarterback in the league. You can say, "Well he has the best supporting cast in the game." That is a valid point, but he never fails in a Must-Do situation, just look at his 8-0 record in overtime games for proof of that.

Now that my Brady rant is out of me, lets get back to the subject. Rivers is gonna have a hard time adjusting to the NFL IMO. Like a previous poster said, he will not have enough zip on the intermediate passes to get them through defenders. For him to be accurate he needs to have an arch to his pass because of his low delivery. He will not be able to throw those low laser passes that EVERY other QB can throw, therefore I expect him to get picked off A LOT until he alters his mechanics.

Every football board I've been on has a raging debate between Patriot fans pimping Tom Brady and the rest of the world pointing out that Peyton Manning is better. Well, I'm not from Boston...Peyton Manning is better.

eXperiment63 · 07-12-2004, 12:18 AM

Peyton Manning is a better player, but he is not a better Quarterback. Stats don't mean [censored] if you are sitting at home during the SuperBowl. Brady doesn't put up huge stats, he just gets the job done any way he has to. His job is to lead his team to victory and he does that better than anybody in the league.

SportsK1NG · 07-12-2004, 12:24 AM

he didnt take them to the superbowl on his back.. if he did then he would be a better QB than Manning. He did go to the superbowl and he did perform very well but he wasnt the #1 reason they were there like you are trying to make it seem.

Last time I checked Manning cant play all 22 positions. So he did MORE than enough to help his team out. The other players are the reason he isnt in the superbowl.

eXperiment63 · 07-12-2004, 12:40 AM

Overtime: 8-0
Playoffs: 6-0
Career: 40-13(.755 winning percentage)

His defense does help his record, a lot, I do no dispute that. Peyton Manning's offensive threats also help him a GREAT deal. He has a great back, a great receiver, a very good receiving TE, and a couple of very solid receivers. Brady has a few decent receivers, had one good season from a back, and that is about it. That offense goes as he goes, hopefully that will change this year. Thus far though, he has been their offense.

Until Peyton Manning proves he can win the big one(and wins a few), Brady is the superior QUARTERBACK, not player.

seanmac · 07-12-2004, 12:43 AM

Quote:

eXperiment63 said:
Peyton Manning is a better player, but he is not a better Quarterback. Stats don't mean [censored] if you are sitting at home during the SuperBowl. Brady doesn't put up huge stats, he just gets the job done any way he has to. His job is to lead his team to victory and he does that better than anybody in the league.

This is a fundamentally silly argument. The 2001 Patriots put up one offensive touchdown a game through the playoffs, and Brady had a whopping eighty yards passing heading into the last minute of the first Super Bowl. Come to think of it, they put up about one touchdown a game in this postseason, too. To the extent that he contributed to the team's winning those games, he deserves credit. But it would be every bit as easy to argue that he was responsible for those games being as close as they were because his offense would score on the opening drive and then get shut down for the rest of the game.

Brady is a good player and a terrific decision maker (although he takes a hit for throwing what could have been season ending interceptions back to back in the AFC Championship game and Super Bowl game this year- he got away with it, much like he got away with his fumble in Oakland...sometimes it's better to be lucky than good), and he has improved his game over the last few years, particularly his deep ball and his play action. And he's gotten the best results of any player over the last three years, there is no arguing that. But best results doesn't necessarily equal best player, particularly when you are talking about a sport with 22 starting players.

Basically, there is no reason to think that the Patriots wouldn't have done as well or better with Peyton Manning at the controls the last three seasons, because by any objective criteria that measures quarterback output, he is on a different level than Brady.

Incidentally, the War Room grades out the personnel of every team in football, and if you examine how they break teams down, factoring in offense, defense, special teams, and reserves, New England grades out as the second best team in football, while the Colts grade out down around eighteen, behind every team in their division, including Houston. Manning's getting that team to 12-4 and into the AFC Championship game is every bit as impressive if not more so than Brady's taking the Pats to the Super Bowl.

Triton · 07-12-2004, 01:48 AM

Quote:

seanmac said:

Quote:

Triton said:
Wow, you should be a scout. Clearly from your couch you are able to see things that pro scouts are missing. Good job!

Um, okay, here's a professional scout (btw, squint, you can't seriously be comparing River's arm strength with David Carr). From the Huddle Report, one of the better draft sites on the net.

Strengths
Philip Rivers is an excellent college player. He is an excellent athlete.* He has excellent size, is fluid in his movements in and out of the pocket and is as fast as the best TE’s. He has excellent command of the game plan. He makes the players around him better and has good leadership skills.

Needs to Improve
I'm not going to bother with telling you he needs better mechanics because he throws side arm. I am going to tell you that know matter what Philip Rivers does that his arm will never be strong enough to be an NFL STARTING QB. There I said it…go-ahead throw things at me. I can take it.

Bottom Line
Now, stop yelling at the profile guy. I know it is not what you Philip River fans wanted to hear, but it is the truth. He can be an excellent backup QB but not a starter. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking he can play in the west coast offense. To be successful, that offense has to have the threat of a strong arm. Let's be honest, the most success that the WCO has had is with Steve Young and Brett Farve. Contrary to popular belief, Joe Montana had a damn good arm too. If the WCO QB does not have a strong arm, the CB’s will sit on the short routes and in the big games, WCO teams will lose. (See Seattle vs. Green Bay playoff game Jan. 4, 2004.) The longer Philip Rivers is on the field, the more problems he will have with interceptions. Now cover your eyes if you are a fan of Philips. Here I go! I feel that Philip has the athletic talent to be an impact pass catching TE in the NFL. If he wants to be an impact player in the NFL, he will have to change positions. He should go in the third or fourth round at the earliest. Please no yelling at the profile guy.
*
The Bottom to the Bottom Line - 04/12/04
In looking back on this profile I do have to apologize for being so rough on Philip. That being said I have not changed my mind or my profile. In fact in my opinion Philip has the same positives and negatives to his game as Matt Mauck QB LSU. (See Profile) I think that the scouts and GM’s that have promoted the possibility that Philip will be taken in the first round should be ashamed of themselves. Everytime I go back to the film and see Philip throw the ball down after down no longer then 10 to 12 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I look at a whole game and never once see him throw a ball to the sidelines more then 15 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I see Philip throw the ball about 30 yds off the line of scrimmage but only down the middle of the field and never deep with any velocity, I shake my head. You are being fooled because this kid is an excellent manager of a game plan, into thinking that it is possible for him to be a starting QB in the NFL. Those of you who think this I have two words for you, Danny Wuerffel.

Well for every one of those I can pull out something like Norm Chow (his former coach) saying that he is the best QB in the draft and will "win a Super Bowl in 3 years." Of course your response will be that he is biased, and possibly so.

I just love these armchair scouts that label players busts before they've even donned a jersey.

DXZeke · 07-12-2004, 01:55 AM

Living in Raleigh, NC I got to see a lot of Rivers over the past 4yrs play live at Carter Finley and on TV. This kids has some crazy reading ablitiles, much like Tom Brady. Who cares if you can't bomb it down the field every play. Look at what Brady and the Patriots do... short passes to speedy recivers who chew up yards.

Rivers IF given the chance will be a in the worlds of Dicky V... a PTP in the NFL. Hell of a lot better than Eli Manning will be.

07-12-2004, 12:03 AM	#17
seanmac MVP OVR: 8 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Quote: *Triton said:* Wow, you should be a scout. Clearly from your couch you are able to see things that pro scouts are missing. Good job! Um, okay, here's a professional scout (btw, squint, you can't seriously be comparing River's arm strength with David Carr). From the Huddle Report, one of the better draft sites on the net. Strengths Philip Rivers is an excellent college player. He is an excellent athlete.* He has excellent size, is fluid in his movements in and out of the pocket and is as fast as the best TE’s. He has excellent command of the game plan. He makes the players around him better and has good leadership skills. Needs to Improve I'm not going to bother with telling you he needs better mechanics because he throws side arm. I am going to tell you that know matter what Philip Rivers does that his arm will never be strong enough to be an NFL STARTING QB. There I said it…go-ahead throw things at me. I can take it. Bottom Line Now, stop yelling at the profile guy. I know it is not what you Philip River fans wanted to hear, but it is the truth. He can be an excellent backup QB but not a starter. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking he can play in the west coast offense. To be successful, that offense has to have the threat of a strong arm. Let's be honest, the most success that the WCO has had is with Steve Young and Brett Farve. Contrary to popular belief, Joe Montana had a damn good arm too. If the WCO QB does not have a strong arm, the CB’s will sit on the short routes and in the big games, WCO teams will lose. (See Seattle vs. Green Bay playoff game Jan. 4, 2004.) The longer Philip Rivers is on the field, the more problems he will have with interceptions. Now cover your eyes if you are a fan of Philips. Here I go! I feel that Philip has the athletic talent to be an impact pass catching TE in the NFL. If he wants to be an impact player in the NFL, he will have to change positions. He should go in the third or fourth round at the earliest. Please no yelling at the profile guy. * The Bottom to the Bottom Line - 04/12/04 In looking back on this profile I do have to apologize for being so rough on Philip. That being said I have not changed my mind or my profile. In fact in my opinion Philip has the same positives and negatives to his game as Matt Mauck QB LSU. (See Profile) I think that the scouts and GM’s that have promoted the possibility that Philip will be taken in the first round should be ashamed of themselves. Everytime I go back to the film and see Philip throw the ball down after down no longer then 10 to 12 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I look at a whole game and never once see him throw a ball to the sidelines more then 15 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I see Philip throw the ball about 30 yds off the line of scrimmage but only down the middle of the field and never deep with any velocity, I shake my head. You are being fooled because this kid is an excellent manager of a game plan, into thinking that it is possible for him to be a starting QB in the NFL. Those of you who think this I have two words for you, Danny Wuerffel.

07-12-2004, 12:13 AM	#18
seanmac MVP OVR: 8 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Quote: *eXperiment63 said:* This reminds so much of Brady discussions I have had. Brady is Bar-None, the best Quarterback in the league. Don't come at me with the Peyton Manning-Steve McNair stats. The last time I checked, the Quarterbacks job is to lead his team to victory, not pile up the best stats in the league. Brady leads his team to victory much better than any other Quarterback in the league. You can say, "Well he has the best supporting cast in the game." That is a valid point, but he never fails in a Must-Do situation, just look at his 8-0 record in overtime games for proof of that. Now that my Brady rant is out of me, lets get back to the subject. Rivers is gonna have a hard time adjusting to the NFL IMO. Like a previous poster said, he will not have enough zip on the intermediate passes to get them through defenders. For him to be accurate he needs to have an arch to his pass because of his low delivery. He will not be able to throw those low laser passes that EVERY other QB can throw, therefore I expect him to get picked off A LOT until he alters his mechanics. Every football board I've been on has a raging debate between Patriot fans pimping Tom Brady and the rest of the world pointing out that Peyton Manning is better. Well, I'm not from Boston...Peyton Manning is better.

07-12-2004, 12:18 AM	#19
eXperiment63 MVP OVR: 14 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston, MA	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Peyton Manning is a better player, but he is not a better Quarterback. Stats don't mean [censored] if you are sitting at home during the SuperBowl. Brady doesn't put up huge stats, he just gets the job done any way he has to. His job is to lead his team to victory and he does that better than anybody in the league.

07-12-2004, 12:24 AM	#20
SportsK1NG Banned OVR: 6 Join Date: Apr 2004	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture he didnt take them to the superbowl on his back.. if he did then he would be a better QB than Manning. He did go to the superbowl and he did perform very well but he wasnt the #1 reason they were there like you are trying to make it seem. Last time I checked Manning cant play all 22 positions. So he did MORE than enough to help his team out. The other players are the reason he isnt in the superbowl.

07-12-2004, 12:40 AM	#21
eXperiment63 MVP OVR: 14 Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Boston, MA	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Overtime: 8-0 Playoffs: 6-0 Career: 40-13(.755 winning percentage) His defense does help his record, a lot, I do no dispute that. Peyton Manning's offensive threats also help him a GREAT deal. He has a great back, a great receiver, a very good receiving TE, and a couple of very solid receivers. Brady has a few decent receivers, had one good season from a back, and that is about it. That offense goes as he goes, hopefully that will change this year. Thus far though, he has been their offense. Until Peyton Manning proves he can win the big one(and wins a few), Brady is the superior QUARTERBACK, not player.

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07-12-2004, 12:43 AM	#22
seanmac MVP OVR: 8 Join Date: Jul 2002	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Quote: *eXperiment63 said:* Peyton Manning is a better player, but he is not a better Quarterback. Stats don't mean [censored] if you are sitting at home during the SuperBowl. Brady doesn't put up huge stats, he just gets the job done any way he has to. His job is to lead his team to victory and he does that better than anybody in the league. This is a fundamentally silly argument. The 2001 Patriots put up one offensive touchdown a game through the playoffs, and Brady had a whopping eighty yards passing heading into the last minute of the first Super Bowl. Come to think of it, they put up about one touchdown a game in this postseason, too. To the extent that he contributed to the team's winning those games, he deserves credit. But it would be every bit as easy to argue that he was responsible for those games being as close as they were because his offense would score on the opening drive and then get shut down for the rest of the game. Brady is a good player and a terrific decision maker (although he takes a hit for throwing what could have been season ending interceptions back to back in the AFC Championship game and Super Bowl game this year- he got away with it, much like he got away with his fumble in Oakland...sometimes it's better to be lucky than good), and he has improved his game over the last few years, particularly his deep ball and his play action. And he's gotten the best results of any player over the last three years, there is no arguing that. But best results doesn't necessarily equal best player, particularly when you are talking about a sport with 22 starting players. Basically, there is no reason to think that the Patriots wouldn't have done as well or better with Peyton Manning at the controls the last three seasons, because by any objective criteria that measures quarterback output, he is on a different level than Brady. Incidentally, the War Room grades out the personnel of every team in football, and if you examine how they break teams down, factoring in offense, defense, special teams, and reserves, New England grades out as the second best team in football, while the Colts grade out down around eighteen, behind every team in their division, including Houston. Manning's getting that team to 12-4 and into the AFC Championship game is every bit as impressive if not more so than Brady's taking the Pats to the Super Bowl.

07-12-2004, 01:48 AM	#23
Triton MVP OVR: 9 Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: The Ohio State University	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Quote: *seanmac said:* Quote: *Triton said:* Wow, you should be a scout. Clearly from your couch you are able to see things that pro scouts are missing. Good job! Um, okay, here's a professional scout (btw, squint, you can't seriously be comparing River's arm strength with David Carr). From the Huddle Report, one of the better draft sites on the net. Strengths Philip Rivers is an excellent college player. He is an excellent athlete.* He has excellent size, is fluid in his movements in and out of the pocket and is as fast as the best TE’s. He has excellent command of the game plan. He makes the players around him better and has good leadership skills. Needs to Improve I'm not going to bother with telling you he needs better mechanics because he throws side arm. I am going to tell you that know matter what Philip Rivers does that his arm will never be strong enough to be an NFL STARTING QB. There I said it…go-ahead throw things at me. I can take it. Bottom Line Now, stop yelling at the profile guy. I know it is not what you Philip River fans wanted to hear, but it is the truth. He can be an excellent backup QB but not a starter. Please do not fall into the trap of thinking he can play in the west coast offense. To be successful, that offense has to have the threat of a strong arm. Let's be honest, the most success that the WCO has had is with Steve Young and Brett Farve. Contrary to popular belief, Joe Montana had a damn good arm too. If the WCO QB does not have a strong arm, the CB’s will sit on the short routes and in the big games, WCO teams will lose. (See Seattle vs. Green Bay playoff game Jan. 4, 2004.) The longer Philip Rivers is on the field, the more problems he will have with interceptions. Now cover your eyes if you are a fan of Philips. Here I go! I feel that Philip has the athletic talent to be an impact pass catching TE in the NFL. If he wants to be an impact player in the NFL, he will have to change positions. He should go in the third or fourth round at the earliest. Please no yelling at the profile guy. * The Bottom to the Bottom Line - 04/12/04 In looking back on this profile I do have to apologize for being so rough on Philip. That being said I have not changed my mind or my profile. In fact in my opinion Philip has the same positives and negatives to his game as Matt Mauck QB LSU. (See Profile) I think that the scouts and GM’s that have promoted the possibility that Philip will be taken in the first round should be ashamed of themselves. Everytime I go back to the film and see Philip throw the ball down after down no longer then 10 to 12 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I look at a whole game and never once see him throw a ball to the sidelines more then 15 yds off the line of scrimmage, I shake my head. Everytime I see Philip throw the ball about 30 yds off the line of scrimmage but only down the middle of the field and never deep with any velocity, I shake my head. You are being fooled because this kid is an excellent manager of a game plan, into thinking that it is possible for him to be a starting QB in the NFL. Those of you who think this I have two words for you, Danny Wuerffel. Well for every one of those I can pull out something like Norm Chow (his former coach) saying that he is the best QB in the draft and will "win a Super Bowl in 3 years." Of course your response will be that he is biased, and possibly so. I just love these armchair scouts that label players busts before they've even donned a jersey.

07-12-2004, 01:55 AM	#24
DXZeke Straight Edge OVR: 21 Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 2,539	Re: Phillip Rivers Picture Living in Raleigh, NC I got to see a lot of Rivers over the past 4yrs play live at Carter Finley and on TV. This kids has some crazy reading ablitiles, much like Tom Brady. Who cares if you can't bomb it down the field every play. Look at what Brady and the Patriots do... short passes to speedy recivers who chew up yards. Rivers IF given the chance will be a in the worlds of Dicky V... a PTP in the NFL. Hell of a lot better than Eli Manning will be.

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