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MartinDihigo · 07-24-2004, 08:32 PM

this is probably the best post on qb spy yet.

I will have to run this test the first chance i get (i just got my copy, + i am re-learning how to play after a switch from ps2 to xbox and 6 months off)

Yea, it sounds like vc may have programmed the qb spy a little bit different from what the standard understanding of what a qb spy is...

Quote:

Flamehead said:
Ok guys, it DOES work. Want to see for yourself? Do this (this is what I did and you can see the spy at work):

1) Go into Practice Mode, Full Scrimmage
2) Select Bengals at Falcons with AI playcalling off for both offense and defense
3) Choose the Bengals who should be on Defense
4) For the Bengals defensive play, choose Base, Cover 3, with the MLB playing zone to the right of the field.
5) For the Falcons offensive play, choose Weak I Spread, RO Y Cross. Make sure it shows Vick rolling to the left of the field.

Now, here is where you will see the differences if you look at these three scenrios:
Scenario 1: Don't do anything. Just watch the play develop, specifically watching the MLB. You will notice that he drops back and to the right in his zone, picking up the slot receiver, PAST THE YELLOW 1ST DOWN MARKER (this is key). Now,
Scenerio 2: With the same play, adjust the MLB to spy the QB and watch what happens. This time, he still drops back a bit with the slot receiver in his zone, but as Vick rolls out to the left, the MLB starts moving over to the left with him and lets the slot receiver past him. This time HE DOESN'T DRIFT BACK PAST THE YELLOW FIRST DOWN MARKER like he did last time--he instead stays up some and subtly starts drifting over to the left following Vick. It's subtle, but it's a very noticable difference between that and what he just did in scenerio 1.

It's important to remember that a) you won't see a change in the assignment when you hit the white responsibility button, and b)when you hit the right trigger to designate a QB spy YOU WILL BRIEFLY SEE THE ICONS FOR THE DB ASSIGNMENTS--that's ok, it is normal and doesn't change the fact that you called a QB spy. Want proof? Do this:
Scenrio 3: With the same plays as above, designate the MLB to (instead of spying the QB) double the "L" receiver by hitting the left trigger. As with scenario 2 above, you will see the DB icons come up when you hit the left trigger--again, that's ok and doesn't mean anything. Now, as the play develops, the MLB will drop back into his zone, but he won't drift right as with his original responsibility--instead he will drift straight back. Once he sees Vick rolling out, he immediately heads for the "L" receiver to cover him, directly opposite of this original responsibility.

Again, you will see the differences if you run all three of these scenarios back to back. And since we're talking about QB spy, note especially the differences between scenarios 1 and 2. In number 2, a) he doesn't drift back as much, and b) starts drifting to the left when Vick rolls out to the left--not flat out runs towards him, but drifts.

Seriously, print this post, get in front of your console, and try it. The QB spy DOES work. It could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one.

Flamehead · 07-24-2004, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Daudr said:

Quote:

Flamehead said:could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one.

Sorry, but QB spy isn't some super secret play. After the snap if a spy is working correctly he will mirror the QB movements - THAT is his assignment. If he stays in zone coverage or whatever, he is NOT correctly spying. What VC seems to have implemented is a "leave your assignment only after the QB runs to the LOS" which is NOT a real QB spy, it's just simply normal good defense.

Well, again, if you compare the two scenarios, the MLB does indeed react differently based on that fact that he's spying. And he doesn't start automatically running towards Vick when Vick starts running left. It's like he starts drifting left when Vick goes left, but because Vick stops after his rollout to look for and pass to a receiver, the MLB just keeps drifting rather than flat out pursuing. You have to remember that on this play, Vick isn't bootlegging flat out into a run--he rolls out, stops, and looks for a receiver to pass to. AND he's 6-7 yards behind the LOS when he stops. So, because he stops running that far behind the LOS, it looks to me like the MLB (in response) is simply taking a "wait and see" approach because Vick isn't bolting for any yardage.

And while the MLB is spying the QB, I don't think he's supposed to just stand there and pick his nose waiting to see what the QB does. If the QB drops back, even if it's a rollout, and isn't making a run for any yardage, it makes sense to me that the MLB isn't going to just flat out commit himself to going after the QB--hence, the shallow drop into zone. After all, if the QB isn't running, he could still throw to someone in the MLB's neighborhood.

Look, I'm not looking to win any debates on this one. You can believe what you want. If there's anyone that wants to believe QB spy is not in this game, or is implemented incorrectly, great, knock yourself out. All I know is I see a difference, I see the MLB spying, and I pretty much saw (in these scenarios with these plays) smart football. It looks to me like (in this instance) if Vick had decided to run after a few seconds of finding no receivers open, the MLB, by virtue of drifting over to Vicks side, would have prevented him from gaining any serious yardage provided he made the tackle. In other words, keep an eye on him, but don't be clueless about the receivers coming into the area.

Anyways, this game is friggin' incredible.

azn_essence · 07-24-2004, 08:59 PM

the qb spy is definitely there. But from what I see, the MLB doesn't even chase vick even though he runs to the sideline and stands right next to the LOS. He takes his zone with more importance than the spy.

m12x13adass · 07-25-2004, 01:50 AM

Quote:

Flamehead said:
Ok guys, it DOES work. Want to see for yourself? Do this (this is what I did and you can see the spy at work):

1) Go into Practice Mode, Full Scrimmage
2) Select Bengals at Falcons with AI playcalling off for both offense and defense
3) Choose the Bengals who should be on Defense
4) For the Bengals defensive play, choose Base, Cover 3, with the MLB playing zone to the right of the field.
5) For the Falcons offensive play, choose Weak I Spread, RO Y Cross. Make sure it shows Vick rolling to the left of the field.

Now, here is where you will see the differences if you look at these three scenrios:
Scenario 1: Don't do anything. Just watch the play develop, specifically watching the MLB. You will notice that he drops back and to the right in his zone, picking up the slot receiver, PAST THE YELLOW 1ST DOWN MARKER (this is key). Now,
Scenerio 2: With the same play, adjust the MLB to spy the QB and watch what happens. This time, he still drops back a bit with the slot receiver in his zone, but as Vick rolls out to the left, the MLB starts moving over to the left with him and lets the slot receiver past him. This time HE DOESN'T DRIFT BACK PAST THE YELLOW FIRST DOWN MARKER like he did last time--he instead stays up some and subtly starts drifting over to the left following Vick. It's subtle, but it's a very noticable difference between that and what he just did in scenerio 1.

It's important to remember that a) you won't see a change in the assignment when you hit the white responsibility button, and b)when you hit the right trigger to designate a QB spy YOU WILL BRIEFLY SEE THE ICONS FOR THE DB ASSIGNMENTS--that's ok, it is normal and doesn't change the fact that you called a QB spy. Want proof? Do this:
Scenrio 3: With the same plays as above, designate the MLB to (instead of spying the QB) double the "L" receiver by hitting the left trigger. As with scenario 2 above, you will see the DB icons come up when you hit the left trigger--again, that's ok and doesn't mean anything. Now, as the play develops, the MLB will drop back into his zone, but he won't drift right as with his original responsibility--instead he will drift straight back. Once he sees Vick rolling out, he immediately heads for the "L" receiver to cover him, directly opposite of this original responsibility.

Again, you will see the differences if you run all three of these scenarios back to back. And since we're talking about QB spy, note especially the differences between scenarios 1 and 2. In number 2, a) he doesn't drift back as much, and b) starts drifting to the left when Vick rolls out to the left--not flat out runs towards him, but drifts.

Seriously, print this post, get in front of your console, and try it. The QB spy DOES work. It could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one.

Thank you.

bcruise · 07-25-2004, 02:37 AM

Great post Flame. I noticed this when I was running QB sneaks in practice with Quincy Carter. When I would set Dexter Coakley to spy, he would almost always be the first guy to get to him even when the play flowed the other way. It seems like the spy logic drifts a bit though when the QB is able to get to the outside, because the spy doesn't really follow him aggresively. That leads to a lot of big runs, of course, but maybe setting the safety or cb to spy (NOT a big risk at all because of the game's spy logic) would help alleviate that.

I've got a question: We know it's possible to hot-double team multiple recievers. In the same way, can you have double spies? It's so hard to tell when one spy is working, let alone two. Anyone who's noticed two or more spies visibly working at the same time feel free to post what play you were using.

Oh, one more thing flame......you might want to mention that you have to flip the cover 3 to make it work as you described, for the slow people like me. Took me about a half hour to figure out why the LB always followed Vick anyway - because on the normal, unflipped play, his zone moves him that way.

TheBandit · 07-25-2004, 05:06 AM

Maybe I'm being a gigantic idiot here, but how do you set someone to spy? You say just hit the spy button -- well, what is the "spy button?" When I hit the R trigger as the command for my linebacker it simply calls up the defensive backs (as pressing R any other time would.) If any of you guys sees anything different when you call spy please let me know. Otherwise I see no reason to believe you as I have experimented with this myself for about an hour and a half.

Edit: nevermind, just tried this out for myself and I'll be darned, but he's right. This is good to know.

Flamehead · 07-25-2004, 08:22 AM

Quote:

bcruise said:
Great post Flame. I noticed this when I was running QB sneaks in practice with Quincy Carter. When I would set Dexter Coakley to spy, he would almost always be the first guy to get to him even when the play flowed the other way. It seems like the spy logic drifts a bit though when the QB is able to get to the outside, because the spy doesn't really follow him aggresively. That leads to a lot of big runs, of course, but maybe setting the safety or cb to spy (NOT a big risk at all because of the game's spy logic) would help alleviate that.

I've got a question: We know it's possible to hot-double team multiple recievers. In the same way, can you have double spies? It's so hard to tell when one spy is working, let alone two. Anyone who's noticed two or more spies visibly working at the same time feel free to post what play you were using.

Oh, one more thing flame......you might want to mention that you have to flip the cover 3 to make it work as you described, for the slow people like me. Took me about a half hour to figure out why the LB always followed Vick anyway - because on the normal, unflipped play, his zone moves him that way.

Hey bcruise,

That's a good question--I'm not sure if one can double spy or not, I'd have to go into practice to find out. It's worth looking into.

Good point, I should have mentioned the "flip" above...

07-24-2004, 08:32 PM	#41
MartinDihigo MVP OVR: 7 Join Date: Mar 2004	Re: QB Spy 101 this is probably the best post on qb spy yet. I will have to run this test the first chance i get (i just got my copy, + i am re-learning how to play after a switch from ps2 to xbox and 6 months off) Yea, it sounds like vc may have programmed the qb spy a little bit different from what the standard understanding of what a qb spy is... Quote: *Flamehead said:* Ok guys, it DOES work. Want to see for yourself? Do this (this is what I did and you can see the spy at work): 1) Go into Practice Mode, Full Scrimmage 2) Select Bengals at Falcons with AI playcalling off for both offense and defense 3) Choose the Bengals who should be on Defense 4) For the Bengals defensive play, choose Base, Cover 3, with the MLB playing zone to the right of the field. 5) For the Falcons offensive play, choose Weak I Spread, RO Y Cross. Make sure it shows Vick rolling to the left of the field. Now, here is where you will see the differences if you look at these three scenrios: Scenario 1: Don't do anything. Just watch the play develop, specifically watching the MLB. You will notice that he drops back and to the right in his zone, picking up the slot receiver, PAST THE YELLOW 1ST DOWN MARKER (this is key). Now, Scenerio 2: With the same play, adjust the MLB to spy the QB and watch what happens. This time, he still drops back a bit with the slot receiver in his zone, but as Vick rolls out to the left, the MLB starts moving over to the left with him and lets the slot receiver past him. This time HE DOESN'T DRIFT BACK PAST THE YELLOW FIRST DOWN MARKER like he did last time--he instead stays up some and subtly starts drifting over to the left following Vick. It's subtle, but it's a very noticable difference between that and what he just did in scenerio 1. It's important to remember that a) you won't see a change in the assignment when you hit the white responsibility button, and b)when you hit the right trigger to designate a QB spy YOU WILL BRIEFLY SEE THE ICONS FOR THE DB ASSIGNMENTS--that's ok, it is normal and doesn't change the fact that you called a QB spy. Want proof? Do this: Scenrio 3: With the same plays as above, designate the MLB to (instead of spying the QB) double the "L" receiver by hitting the left trigger. As with scenario 2 above, you will see the DB icons come up when you hit the left trigger--again, that's ok and doesn't mean anything. Now, as the play develops, the MLB will drop back into his zone, but he won't drift right as with his original responsibility--instead he will drift straight back. Once he sees Vick rolling out, he immediately heads for the "L" receiver to cover him, directly opposite of this original responsibility. Again, you will see the differences if you run all three of these scenarios back to back. And since we're talking about QB spy, note especially the differences between scenarios 1 and 2. In number 2, a) he doesn't drift back as much, and b) starts drifting to the left when Vick rolls out to the left--not flat out runs towards him, but drifts. Seriously, print this post, get in front of your console, and try it. The QB spy DOES work. It could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one.

07-24-2004, 08:54 PM	#42
Flamehead Banned OVR: 11 Join Date: Dec 2002	Re: QB Spy 101 Quote: *Daudr said:* Quote: *Flamehead said:could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one. Sorry, but QB spy isn't some super secret play. After the snap if a spy is working correctly* he will mirror the QB movements - THAT is his assignment. If he stays in zone coverage or whatever, he is NOT correctly spying. What VC seems to have implemented is a "leave your assignment only after the QB runs to the LOS" which is NOT a real QB spy, it's just simply normal good defense. Well, again, if you compare the two scenarios, the MLB does indeed react differently based on that fact that he's spying. And he doesn't start automatically running towards Vick when Vick starts running left. It's like he starts drifting left when Vick goes left, but because Vick stops after his rollout to look for and pass to a receiver, the MLB just keeps drifting rather than flat out pursuing. You have to remember that on this play, Vick isn't bootlegging flat out into a run--he rolls out, stops, and looks for a receiver to pass to. AND he's 6-7 yards behind the LOS when he stops. So, because he stops running that far behind the LOS, it looks to me like the MLB (in response) is simply taking a "wait and see" approach because Vick isn't bolting for any yardage. And while the MLB is spying the QB, I don't think he's supposed to just stand there and pick his nose waiting to see what the QB does. If the QB drops back, even if it's a rollout, and isn't making a run for any yardage, it makes sense to me that the MLB isn't going to just flat out commit himself to going after the QB--hence, the shallow drop into zone. After all, if the QB isn't running, he could still throw to someone in the MLB's neighborhood. Look, I'm not looking to win any debates on this one. You can believe what you want. If there's anyone that wants to believe QB spy is not in this game, or is implemented incorrectly, great, knock yourself out. All I know is I see a difference, I see the MLB spying, and I pretty much saw (in these scenarios with these plays) smart football. It looks to me like (in this instance) if Vick had decided to run after a few seconds of finding no receivers open, the MLB, by virtue of drifting over to Vicks side, would have prevented him from gaining any serious yardage provided he made the tackle. In other words, keep an eye on him, but don't be clueless about the receivers coming into the area. Anyways, this game is friggin' incredible.

07-24-2004, 08:59 PM	#43
azn_essence Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: May 2003	Re: QB Spy 101 the qb spy is definitely there. But from what I see, the MLB doesn't even chase vick even though he runs to the sideline and stands right next to the LOS. He takes his zone with more importance than the spy.

07-25-2004, 01:50 AM	#44
m12x13adass Rookie OVR: 2 Join Date: Aug 2003	Re: QB Spy 101 Quote: *Flamehead said:* Ok guys, it DOES work. Want to see for yourself? Do this (this is what I did and you can see the spy at work): 1) Go into Practice Mode, Full Scrimmage 2) Select Bengals at Falcons with AI playcalling off for both offense and defense 3) Choose the Bengals who should be on Defense 4) For the Bengals defensive play, choose Base, Cover 3, with the MLB playing zone to the right of the field. 5) For the Falcons offensive play, choose Weak I Spread, RO Y Cross. Make sure it shows Vick rolling to the left of the field. Now, here is where you will see the differences if you look at these three scenrios: Scenario 1: Don't do anything. Just watch the play develop, specifically watching the MLB. You will notice that he drops back and to the right in his zone, picking up the slot receiver, PAST THE YELLOW 1ST DOWN MARKER (this is key). Now, Scenerio 2: With the same play, adjust the MLB to spy the QB and watch what happens. This time, he still drops back a bit with the slot receiver in his zone, but as Vick rolls out to the left, the MLB starts moving over to the left with him and lets the slot receiver past him. This time HE DOESN'T DRIFT BACK PAST THE YELLOW FIRST DOWN MARKER like he did last time--he instead stays up some and subtly starts drifting over to the left following Vick. It's subtle, but it's a very noticable difference between that and what he just did in scenerio 1. It's important to remember that a) you won't see a change in the assignment when you hit the white responsibility button, and b)when you hit the right trigger to designate a QB spy YOU WILL BRIEFLY SEE THE ICONS FOR THE DB ASSIGNMENTS--that's ok, it is normal and doesn't change the fact that you called a QB spy. Want proof? Do this: Scenrio 3: With the same plays as above, designate the MLB to (instead of spying the QB) double the "L" receiver by hitting the left trigger. As with scenario 2 above, you will see the DB icons come up when you hit the left trigger--again, that's ok and doesn't mean anything. Now, as the play develops, the MLB will drop back into his zone, but he won't drift right as with his original responsibility--instead he will drift straight back. Once he sees Vick rolling out, he immediately heads for the "L" receiver to cover him, directly opposite of this original responsibility. Again, you will see the differences if you run all three of these scenarios back to back. And since we're talking about QB spy, note especially the differences between scenarios 1 and 2. In number 2, a) he doesn't drift back as much, and b) starts drifting to the left when Vick rolls out to the left--not flat out runs towards him, but drifts. Seriously, print this post, get in front of your console, and try it. The QB spy DOES work. It could be that VC has made this game so realistic that it's fooling a lot of us into thinking that it's not working because the MLB doesn't make it very obvious--which is how it should be. I'm backing up M12 on this one. Thank you.

07-25-2004, 02:37 AM	#45
bcruise Hall Of Fame OVR: 48 Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 23,027 Blog Entries: 8	Re: QB Spy 101 Great post Flame. I noticed this when I was running QB sneaks in practice with Quincy Carter. When I would set Dexter Coakley to spy, he would almost always be the first guy to get to him even when the play flowed the other way. It seems like the spy logic drifts a bit though when the QB is able to get to the outside, because the spy doesn't really follow him aggresively. That leads to a lot of big runs, of course, but maybe setting the safety or cb to spy (NOT a big risk at all because of the game's spy logic) would help alleviate that. I've got a question: We know it's possible to hot-double team multiple recievers. In the same way, can you have double spies? It's so hard to tell when one spy is working, let alone two. Anyone who's noticed two or more spies visibly working at the same time feel free to post what play you were using. Oh, one more thing flame......you might want to mention that you have to flip the cover 3 to make it work as you described, for the slow people like me. Took me about a half hour to figure out why the LB always followed Vick anyway - because on the normal, unflipped play, his zone moves him that way.

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07-25-2004, 05:06 AM	#46
TheBandit Rookie OVR: 3 Join Date: Jun 2004	Re: QB Spy 101 Maybe I'm being a gigantic idiot here, but how do you set someone to spy? You say just hit the spy button -- well, what is the "spy button?" When I hit the R trigger as the command for my linebacker it simply calls up the defensive backs (as pressing R any other time would.) If any of you guys sees anything different when you call spy please let me know. Otherwise I see no reason to believe you as I have experimented with this myself for about an hour and a half. Edit: nevermind, just tried this out for myself and I'll be darned, but he's right. This is good to know.

07-25-2004, 08:22 AM	#47
Flamehead Banned OVR: 11 Join Date: Dec 2002	Re: QB Spy 101 Quote: *bcruise said:* Great post Flame. I noticed this when I was running QB sneaks in practice with Quincy Carter. When I would set Dexter Coakley to spy, he would almost always be the first guy to get to him even when the play flowed the other way. It seems like the spy logic drifts a bit though when the QB is able to get to the outside, because the spy doesn't really follow him aggresively. That leads to a lot of big runs, of course, but maybe setting the safety or cb to spy (NOT a big risk at all because of the game's spy logic) would help alleviate that. I've got a question: We know it's possible to hot-double team multiple recievers. In the same way, can you have double spies? It's so hard to tell when one spy is working, let alone two. Anyone who's noticed two or more spies visibly working at the same time feel free to post what play you were using. Oh, one more thing flame......you might want to mention that you have to flip the cover 3 to make it work as you described, for the slow people like me. Took me about a half hour to figure out why the LB always followed Vick anyway - because on the normal, unflipped play, his zone moves him that way. Hey bcruise, That's a good question--I'm not sure if one can double spy or not, I'd have to go into practice to find out. It's worth looking into. Good point, I should have mentioned the "flip" above...

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