Dear Steve Noah: Your thoughts on the SPY question.

[quietcool72]

Steve,
This is Quietcool72, co-founder/Senior Writer from over at ConsoleFootball.com. Like many people, I enjoy your site, your reviews, and your observations. You guys do a great job over here, and you guys have some of the best forum people around. Wanted to ask you to help answer the SPY working/not working question for ESPN NFL 2K5 once and for all.

Recently, myself and Bangpow- the other CF.com co founder- too ESPN NFL 2K5 on a "SPY" test run on XBOX. Like many people, I had yet to see it work. Myself and Bangpow played an unranked game on Live just to test out the SPY hot defensive audible.

We tried it with safeties, linebackers, defensive ends, corners.. you name it. The results we got were always the same. The defensive player assigned to "SPY" did whatever his assignment was originally, with complete ignorance to his Spy assignment.

We also tried it in zone defenses, zone-man mixes, straight man- you name it. We tested everything for over a half an hour of punting back and forth and testing it. Yet, still the same lack of result. Both Vick and Gannon had no shadow whatsoever during rollouts/scrambles. Both Bangpow and myself came to same same conclusion: Spy is broken this year, and doesn't work. (Much like assigned double teams didn't work on ESPN 2K4 PS2 last year.)

However, when this finding is mentioned, I get called everything in the book by ESPN gamers everywhere who claim that "It works!" and/or that I "Have No Game." Other comments will be left out, but I'm sure you get the point. I was wondering if you personally have ever seen "Spy" work in ESPN 2K5, and if so- what are the rest of us doing wrong who admit to not seeing it work at all.

Let me know. Its a huge debate on your forums and elsewhere as well. Just wonder what you have personally found, and if you can help us shed some light about it. I know over at ESPN's own message board, there's a sticky about it, but still debate about whether it works.

I was just curious to see what OpSports has found on this issue. I know that scrambling QB cheese is very prevalent in many ESPN Online games- I just wondered what you guys have found.

[Dondadda]

Just FYI - the Spy defensive hot route works on PS2 in zone coverage. Perhaps this is an XBOX problem?

[quietcool72]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dondadda

Just FYI - the Spy defensive hot route works on PS2 in zone coverage. Perhaps this is an XBOX problem?

Really? I tested it in PS2 as well. I own both. There was no shadowing of the QB. None. And this is in both zone and man defenses.

Some people over at ESPN's forums theorize that it "just ups the awareness" of a particular player during his original zone coverage, and he has a slight predisposition to chase the QB should that QB start upfield."

The problem with that is the defenders original zone responsibility may take him away from where the QB is rolling towards. Thus negating the value of Spy.

I wonder what VG Sports will have to say about this with their upcoming ESPN NFL 2K5 online "virtual playbook."

[Dondadda]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Really? I tested it in PS2 as well. I own both. There was no shadowing of the QB. None. And this is in both zone and man defenses. Some people over at ESPN's forums theorize that it "just ups the awareness" of a particular player during his original zone coverage, and he has a slight predisposition to chase the QB should that QB start upfield." The problem with that is the defenders original zone responsibility may take him away from where the QB is rolling towards. Thus negating the value of Spy. I wonder what VG Sports will have to say about this with their upcoming ESPN NFL 2K5 online "virtual playbook."

All I know is that it seems to work for me. No clue as to why you are seeing different results.

Also, I am very aggressive with my 1st down D playcalls and my empty backfield playcalls . . . so really the QB doesn't have much time to think back there. Throw or run in a certain direction. Big play or big bust.

[LBzrule]

Quote:

However, when this finding is mentioned, I get called everything in the book by ESPN gamers everywhere who claim that "It works!" and/or that I "Have No Game." Other comments will be left out, but I'm sure you get the point. I was wondering if you personally have ever seen "Spy" work in ESPN 2K5, and if so- what are the rest of us doing wrong who admit to not seeing it work at all.

Yeah and those people are being APOLOGIST and the F word. I'll say this about it, the Spy does NOT work like we want it too or how it SHOULD I guess. It is like the gameplan double from last year and the game plan double for this year, which really doesn't help much if you want someone down hard mirroring the QB. In other words, the defender will get the QB if the QB comes in his area otherwise... I don't even bother to call it, I find other was to keep the QB contained.

[quietcool72]

Quote: Originally Posted by LBzrule

Yeah and those people are being APOLOGIST and the F word. I'll say this about it, the Spy does NOT work like we want it too or how it SHOULD I guess. It is like the gameplan double from last year and the game plan double for this year, which really doesn't help much if you want someone down hard mirroring the QB. In other words, the defender will get the QB if the QB comes in his area otherwise... I don't even bother to call it, I find other was to keep the QB contained.

Ah, I think I'm speaking to an authority on the series here.

Would this happen to be the same LBzrule from FBG's ESPN NFL 2K4 running preview posts from summer 2003? How's it going man?

Your findings mirror my own. But its amazing how many people tell me "Spy works! Learn to play!" as if I'm some newb to the series. (Been playing it since Dreamcast!!!) As well as the ESPN loyalists calling me everything but my name for mentioning a broken QB Spy dynamic in my review on my site (gave it an 8.9 out of 10, and felt it was a very good game.)

I just wondered if maybe there was something I wasn't doing to get it to work like it should. As a former nose-tackle, I kinda know how Spy "should" work, but I've been given some rather curious explanations as to why I'm wrong about it by the ESPN faithful.

I notice that ESPN's in-house guys are notoriously silent on the issue on their own message boards.

[LBzrule]

Quote: Originally Posted by quietcool72

Ah, I think I'm speaking to an authority on the series here. Would this happen to be the same LBzrule from FBG's ESPN NFL 2K4 running preview posts from summer 2003? How's it going man? Your findings mirror my own. But its amazing how many people tell me "Spy works! Learn to play!" as if I'm some newb to the series. (Been playing it since Dreamcast!!!) As well as the ESPN loyalists calling me everything but my name for mentioning a broken QB Spy dynamic in my review on my site (gave it an 8.9 out of 10, and felt it was a very good game.) I just wondered if maybe there was something I wasn't doing to get it to work like it should. As a former nose-tackle, I kinda know how Spy "should" work, but I've been given some rather curious explanations as to why I'm wrong about it by the ESPN faithful. I notice that ESPN's in-house guys are notoriously silent on the issue on their own message boards.

Same one. People will tell you all kinds of things. They will tell you to "learn" how to play. They will imply that you don't know ect. They may very well be speaking from their experience with the game. They may have had individual instances where it SEEMED like X worked. The QB Spy works sorta, but it just doesn't work the way we want it to work or the way we ran it when we played or the way we see it on Sunday sometimes. We'll probably have it next year the way we want it. Just think of the double from last year. It worked but not the way we thought it would work. It was a "soft double." That is, it was rarely recognizable until the WR got in a spot on the field where one man was playing zone and the other was trailing him playing man. 2 Man is a prime example. The safety's playing the deep halves and the CB playing him man coverage. The Safety would come out of the deep half assignment alot faster, if that WR was anywhere near him. The same applies to QB spy. The defender will come out of the assignment IF the QB comes near him, otherwise he stays with the assignment. That's not how we want it to work, but that's how it works. And I do include myself in the group that wants it to work otherwise than how it works. Maybe they will patch it, who knows?

If you call for instance, 2 Hard, or 2 soft it will work, but again the guy still has his assignment. Some will argue this is how it works in the NFL. I agree and I do not agree. In the NFL yeah when they run Zone Spy this is close to how some teams use it when they are rushing 4 people. But there is more than just zone spy in the NFL and different variations of zone spy that are much harder in their spying than the way it is in ESPN. There is soo much stuff that happens in the real game that no video game has captured all of it yet. I mean you are talking flexing ends and tackles, specific Spy coverages ect. For instance, in the preseason game last year, RAvens @ Falcons, Adalius Thomas did NOT drop into zone coverage. He was spying Vick the entire time. Don't let anyone tell you that it doesn't work other ways in the real NFL because it does. If you send a 3 man rush you can take 1 guy and use him to spy only, whether you are running man or zone, hell even if it is a 4 man rush with man coverage you can still have one guy spying only. What happens with the 4 man rush is the DE's spy the HB's and make sure they don't release, if they do not release the DE's rush, while the spy, spies the QB and you still have enough men in coverage to cover even a 5 WR set.

In the end, folks try to say who got it right Madden or ESPN. Both of them captured PARTS of it. Madden captured more parts in their playbooks with Man AND zone spy plays. Unfortunately, Madden doesn't give you the option to use the DE to spy the HB in man coverage. Neither Madden or ESPN give you the option to flex tackles and ends and use them to spy.

[MartinDihigo]

spy doesn't work.
Hope they fix it next year.


the people who say it works incorrectly think that spy refers to some english phrase like a "quick glance" or some $^!5.

In football when a player is assigned to spy that means that his only responsability is to make sure the person that he is spying (usually a running QB) does not get to the outside on a run. He has no other responsabilty(he doesn't cover someone , he doesn't drop back in a zone, ALL HE DOES IS KEEP CONTAINMENT ON HIS ASSIGNMENT.)

The game doesn't reflect this and that is why that particular feature is doesn't work or is done totally wrong.