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Plays do matter... big time

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Old 09-12-2004, 01:29 PM   #9
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

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Originally Posted by zappa55
There are some plays where if you look closely the RB looks to block first and then runs his route.
So THAT”S what that little white line above the green circle with the red letter “A” means… maybe I should just go hide somewhere.

I did complete some passes using Doubles, 50 H Wheel, once the HB got around the corner and hit the spot the QB was throwing to. So that play works as well… sort of. It works if the HB happens to be in the “spot” the QB is programmed to throw it to. My question is this: Why would the game be programmed to have the QB throw to a “spot” rather than where the receiver “is”? Again, that’s what’s happening with this play and others I’ve come across. Does that make sense? Is it realistic? If a QB looks and sees his HB, who is like 8 yards away, isn’t way over there at that “spot” upfield, why would the QB still throw to that “spot”? Why wouldn’t he adjust and simply throw to where the HB “is” at the time? Some of these "throw to the spot" throws are off by 8 yards. As Robert Plant once sang: I don't think that's right!

I think that’s very odd, but maybe it isn’t. Anyway, I’ll just remove the play from my playbook and find some that make sense to me.
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Old 09-12-2004, 07:01 PM   #10
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

Sounds like the same reason why a lob to an RB in the flats goes way past them. I notice it goes to the same spot each time regardless of where the RB is. Funny though that a bullet pass reaches the RB most of the time.

I've noticed a similar problem when a reciever is supposed to run a route down the field and then cut 90 degrees to the left or right (either to the outside or inside). If for some reason they deviate from this (get caught up in a defender) the QB still throws to where the reciever would have been if he had made the cut.

Now in real life a QB is going to expect to throw the ball where the play was designed. But at the same time if something happens to the route the reciever is running a real QB can compensate. Seems like the AI here can't always do that.

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Old 09-12-2004, 08:36 PM   #11
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

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Originally Posted by Medway
Sounds like the same reason why a lob to an RB in the flats goes way past them. I notice it goes to the same spot each time regardless of where the RB is. Funny though that a bullet pass reaches the RB most of the time.

I've noticed a similar problem when a reciever is supposed to run a route down the field and then cut 90 degrees to the left or right (either to the outside or inside). If for some reason they deviate from this (get caught up in a defender) the QB still throws to where the reciever would have been if he had made the cut.

Now in real life a QB is going to expect to throw the ball where the play was designed. But at the same time if something happens to the route the reciever is running a real QB can compensate. Seems like the AI here can't always do that.
That screen to the flat appears to overshoot the mark because it actually can’t be thrown any shorter, and has to travel 12-15 yards minimum.

I’ve seen that one with the receiver downfield many times. But at least the WR leaps for the ball and it sort of looks like an overthrow. Maybe it’s too much to expect the programming to know to adjust the throw – I just don’t get why they’d have to program the game that way in the first place. I don’t remember 2K4 being that way. Maybe it was?!
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Old 09-12-2004, 10:26 PM   #12
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

Quote:
Originally Posted by baa7
So THAT”S what that little white line above the green circle with the red letter “A” means… maybe I should just go hide somewhere.

I did complete some passes using Doubles, 50 H Wheel, once the HB got around the corner and hit the spot the QB was throwing to. So that play works as well… sort of. It works if the HB happens to be in the “spot” the QB is programmed to throw it to. My question is this: Why would the game be programmed to have the QB throw to a “spot” rather than where the receiver “is”? Again, that’s what’s happening with this play and others I’ve come across. Does that make sense? Is it realistic? If a QB looks and sees his HB, who is like 8 yards away, isn’t way over there at that “spot” upfield, why would the QB still throw to that “spot”? Why wouldn’t he adjust and simply throw to where the HB “is” at the time? Some of these "throw to the spot" throws are off by 8 yards. As Robert Plant once sang: I don't think that's right!

I think that’s very odd, but maybe it isn’t. Anyway, I’ll just remove the play from my playbook and find some that make sense to me.


I guess some QBs look to the left and quickly turn and throw to the right where they expect the RB to be. I wouldn't remove the play though I would just hot route out of it if you don't like it.
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Old 09-13-2004, 01:50 AM   #13
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

Quote:
Originally Posted by baa7
I did complete some passes using Doubles, 50 H Wheel, once the HB got around the corner and hit the spot the QB was throwing to. So that play works as well… sort of. It works if the HB happens to be in the “spot” the QB is programmed to throw it to. My question is this: Why would the game be programmed to have the QB throw to a “spot” rather than where the receiver “is”? Again, that’s what’s happening with this play and others I’ve come across. Does that make sense? Is it realistic?
Yeah, wheel routes suck. They sucked in 2k4 too. The problem, I think, is that the quarterback's dropback is way too short for the wheel route to develop. (Conversely, it might be that the wheel route takes way too long to develop.) Either way, though, you have to wait until the receiver/back running the wheel route turns the corner, like you noticed. Depending on the agility ratings of the route runner, you can be forced to wait a full two seconds to throw after the quarterback finishes his dropback just to ensure a complete pass. By that point, defenders are usually in position to tackle the guy as soon as he catches the ball.

There are a few other routes like this - ones where the spot that the quarterback is throwing the ball isn't really the spot where the player is likely to be. The wheel route is the worst, but shallow crossing routes can do the same thing. I don't have the game handy right now, but it seems like in many plays where tight ends run really shallow (2-3 yard) drags, the spot that the quarterback throws the ball toward is several yards in front of the receiver. You can sort of correct for these problems with maximum passing, but it requires an incredibly light touch of the analog stick in the opposite direction - one I can't reliably produce during an actual game even after practicing. I just try not to throw the ball to those players.
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Old 09-13-2004, 07:05 AM   #14
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

Quote:
Originally Posted by zappa55
I guess some QBs look to the left and quickly turn and throw to the right where they expect the RB to be. I wouldn't remove the play though I would just hot route out of it if you don't like it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsao
The problem, I think, is that the quarterback's dropback is way too short for the wheel route to develop.There are a few other routes like this - ones where the spot that the quarterback is throwing the ball isn't really the spot where the player is likely to be. The wheel route is the worst, but shallow crossing routes can do the same thing.
Thanks for the input. I think what I’ll do is run through some plays and see which ones are more “pass to the receiver” rather than “pass to a spot on the field” oriented. I’ve noticed the Go routes seem to be “pass to the receiver” plays, but that’s maybe because when I use them, I hot route guys all over the place. I’ve never seen that “pass to a spot on the field” behavior with those, and there have to be other plays as well that aren’t programmed like that.

I’m interested in correcting this for the CPU’s sake as well. I use various custom playbooks because I’m trying to help the CPU’s overall game by influencing its play calling. If the CPU has a speedy second back, I give it a playbook with custom formations designed to send the #2 HB outside on running plays. I’ve already removed maybe 20 short/crossing pass plays from my playbooks because the CPU tends to throw a lot into the clogged-up middle zone 4-5 yards past the LoS.
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Old 09-13-2004, 07:51 AM   #15
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Re: Plays do matter... big time

If you look at the routes at the line of scrimmage you will notice that the RB is supposed to block first and then go out for a pass. This is something just about every team in the NFL does. It's the design of the play not the stupidity of the A.I. If you think I'm wrong, run those plays again, but before you snap it bring up the screen that shows everyone's route. You will notice that the RB is supposed to block first and then go out for a pass. If I'm still wrong, then the game is messed up, but I'm willing to bet that the design of the play calls for the RB to block first, and then if there isn't a blitz go out for the pass.
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