Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

[NDAlum]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Staying true to pitching philosophies only make sense in context. The Show does not model baseball perfectly so why would anyone bind themselves to the philosophies used in a system that has very little to do with the system of The Show? The only reason would be to role play which is fine, but don't call that some higher form of baseball. So simply if you do not pitch according to how The Show operates as opposed to real life, your playing the video game poorly. I don't think that is why most people play video games. So to me the poll is disappointing in that 70% of people taking the poll would rather role play being a MLB pitcher instead of trying to succeed at the game. I'm in the latter category because I don't intend to role play.

Ummm we are pushing buttons on a plastic controller as we sit on our butts. We're all role playing!

[MrOldboy]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Ummm we are pushing buttons on a plastic controller as we sit on our butts. We're all role playing!

I'm not sure you know what role playing means in the context of video games.

Everyone is role playing to a degree, that can be applied to any facet of life. In the context of video games it is to restrict one self to a certain style of play or a certain role. Think someone playing an RTS and instead of trying to defeat the AI using the game's logic, they instead restrict themselves to battle tactics only used by the type of military they are controlling in game even if that puts them at a disadvantage. If it's Napoleon Total War they only use French combat formations and tactics from that era. That is essentially what you are arguing for. To role play as a real life baseball player and only use strategies that one would use in real life so even if high off speed pitches are effective in game you restrict yourself to playing as a real MLB pitcher would and never intentionally do that. It's a choice you personally make.

That I get and understand and I've certainly done it in other games. What I don't understand is your outlook on how others play the game as if there is a correct and incorrect side. One side is playing real baseball, but the other is playing arcade baseball.

[mikeq672]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

This thread was to see who utilizes actual true to life fundamentals when pitching and who doesn't. The question has never been asked here and I have always wondered.

I should have left out my personal view of online/offline. It really has no place in this thread. For that I will apologize.

Few in 90s would thought such extreme fielding shifts like MLB teams regularly employ these days are "staying true to baseball."

Great example of how the sport has evolved. I'm sure there are several more.

So maybe the 30% here is ahead of the curve. I'll eat crow if that happens in my life time.

Youll be safe, the break and movement on pitches is way too severly diminished to throw breaking pitches up in the zone with any kind of regularity. Like some said, Ill throw in the occasional high 12-6 just to change eye levels and give people something to think about, very rare though

[Speedy]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

What I don't understand is, why would it be necessary (for a moderator, no less) to belittle forum members who simply don't play the game in a certain way?

Baseball is a dynamic game, and there is a chance that what we believe is the "right way" currently might not actually continue to be the right way as the game changes.

Few in 90s would thought such extreme fielding shifts like MLB teams regularly employ these days are "staying true to baseball."

Sorry that I inadvertently mentioned "online play" which appears an NG word in this part of forum; I regret that I have bothered to contribute to this thread.

I don't think NDAlum's point was to belittle folks...more of as a wink.

I agree with his point that, while in a video game it may be effective, pitchers who throw up in the zone, whether it's a fastball or an offspeed pitch, are facing a substantial risk at getting rocked. Guys like Chapman, Kimbrel, etc. throw 100+ so they can get away with throwing a fastball up in the zone but if they throw a 90+ slider up or in the middle, it's getting crushed.

While The Show tries its best to remain sim-style, there will inevitably be elements which only a video game will capture and not be an element of real life. I know for a fact I can sometimes throw a high 12-6 curve or a high slider up in the zone and get an out when I wouldn't dare do that in my playing days.

[Bobhead]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

I don't think NDAlum's point was to belittle folks...more of as a wink.

I agree with his point that, while in a video game it may be effective, pitchers who throw up in the zone, whether it's a fastball or an offspeed pitch, are facing a substantial risk at getting rocked. Guys like Chapman, Kimbrel, etc. throw 100+ so they can get away with throwing a fastball up in the zone but if they throw a 90+ slider up or in the middle, it's getting crushed.

But I don't really find that to be true in real life either.

It's true that hanging a breaking ball high often leads to disaster. However, this tends to skew the statistics and perceptions for breaking balls in general: All hung breaking balls are high, but not all high breaking balls are hung. A properly executed breaking ball high in the zone can be devastating in real life baseball.

Many pitchers make a living throwing junk high in the zone, from Matt Cain, to Tyler Clippard, to Chris Young.

Not sure why someone would say it isn't real baseball. It literally is.

[Potatoes002]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

I identify myself as a "sim player" but I will still intentionally throw off speed up in the zone. While it is more useful against human opponents, I have found success mixing it in against the CPU. I've had numerous strikeouts dropping a curve up high and having the batter strikeout looking. Throwing a change up and away off the plate will occasionally get batters to chase which has also been pretty successful. The off speed stuff up high isn't my main strategy while pitching, but I mix it in there for sure.

[kehlis]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

But I don't really find that to be true in real life either.

It's true that hanging a breaking ball high often leads to disaster. However, this tends to skew the statistics and perceptions for breaking balls in general: All hung breaking balls are high, but not all high breaking balls are hung. A properly executed breaking ball high in the zone can be devastating in real life baseball.

Many pitchers make a living throwing junk high in the zone, from Matt Cain, to Tyler Clippard, to Chris Young.

Not sure why someone would say it isn't real baseball. It literally is.

Any breaking ball that is up in the zone whether "hanging" or not makes it 10 times easier for the batter to get backspin on the ball which rarely works to the benefit of the pitcher.

It's really never a good idea.



Also, that story you linked about Clippard doesn't even mention any breaking balls. Just a high changeup. He throws his changeup high, which the story explains, because the whole point of the change is to look like his fastball with the same release point. He has one of the highest release points and in generally throws a high fastball which naturally means his changeup is going to start high.

[Bobhead]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Any breaking ball that is up in the zone whether "hanging" or not makes it 10 times easier for the batter to get backspin on the ball which rarely works to the benefit of the pitcher.

It's really never a good idea.



Also, that story you linked about Clippard doesn't even mention any breaking balls. Just a high changeup. He throws his changeup high, which the story explains, because the whole point of the change is to look like his fastball with the same release point. He has one of the highest release points and in generally throws a high fastball which naturally means his changeup is going to start high.

In my mind I just kinda group all non-fastballs in the "breaking ball" category. But you're right a changeup is technically only an offspeed pitch, not a breaking ball. Tomato, tomato. Offspeed is what I meant to say.

As for the article, here's a quote:

He even throws it high in the zone sometimes -- despite your average pitcher's aversion to "hanging" changeups -- with the idea that it's supposed to look just like his fastball. At least until the very end, when it shows up to the plate about a tenth of second later than the fastball. It works. Clippard's change had the 11th-best whiff rate on a changeup thrown at least 300 times last year.

[NDAlum]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

I'm not sure you know what role playing means in the context of video games.

Everyone is role playing to a degree, that can be applied to any facet of life. In the context of video games it is to restrict one self to a certain style of play or a certain role. Think someone playing an RTS and instead of trying to defeat the AI using the game's logic, they instead restrict themselves to battle tactics only used by the type of military they are controlling in game even if that puts them at a disadvantage. If it's Napoleon Total War they only use French combat formations and tactics from that era. That is essentially what you are arguing for. To role play as a real life baseball player and only use strategies that one would use in real life so even if high off speed pitches are effective in game you restrict yourself to playing as a real MLB pitcher would and never intentionally do that. It's a choice you personally make.

That I get and understand and I've certainly done it in other games. What I don't understand is your outlook on how others play the game as if there is a correct and incorrect side. One side is playing real baseball, but the other is playing arcade baseball.

I never said anybody was right or wrong. I said that the folks who voted No on the poll apply real life pitching fundamentals to their pitching approach. The ones who voted Yes don't.

It's your game and if you want to use whatever tool you feel necessary to defeat the CPU AI then go ahead!


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[kehlis]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

In my mind I just kinda group all non-fastballs in the "breaking ball" category. But you're right a changeup is technically only an offspeed pitch, not a breaking ball. Tomato, tomato. Offspeed is what I meant to say.

As for the article, here's a quote:

I actually don't disagree that a high changeup can be effective if you generally throw your fastball high in the zone since the whole point of a changeup is to look as much like your fastball as possible.


My point was more to the discussion of high breaking balls.

[Bobhead]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

I actually don't disagree that a high changeup can be effective if you generally throw your fastball high in the zone since the whole point of a changeup is to look as much like your fastball as possible.


My point was more to the discussion of high breaking balls.

Yeah... I won't say it can't work, but I also can't think of pitchers who ever threw over-the-top cureveballs high in the zone (on purpose). So I don't really disagree with you too much.

I think something like a slider could work, or a slurve, or a curve from a side-arm guy, since all three of those effectively move away from the strike zone anyway... And if a pitch is not in the strike zone, it really doesn't matter what height you throw it at... but I digress.

This thread, and the tangent I was responding to between ND, Speedy, and co, are both about off speed pitches in general, so changeups are mainly what I had in mind. I just want to dispel the notion that throwing off speed pitches high in the zone is exclusive to video games.

[Knight165]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Cut ND some slack....
He had to direct traffic yesterday!(off topic thread...or maybe gear grinder?)
Those crazy motorists probably reminded him of online players!!!

M.K.
Knight165

[NDAlum]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

But I don't really find that to be true in real life either.



It's true that hanging a breaking ball high often leads to disaster. However, this tends to skew the statistics and perceptions for breaking balls in general: All hung breaking balls are high, but not all high breaking balls are hung. A properly executed breaking ball high in the zone can be devastating in real life baseball.



Many pitchers make a living throwing junk high in the zone, from Matt Cain, to Tyler Clippard, to Chris Young.



Not sure why someone would say it isn't real baseball. It literally is.

The gifs showed change ups belt high. So basically due to his arm slot he starts his change where he typically throws his fastball as a way for deception. The key is making the pitches look similar when released.

At the end of the day his "up in the zone" is referencing that he throws them for a strike near belt high. Based on his extraordinarily high release point he's able to get away with being more in the zone than most.

He still doesn't go for the top of the zone. If he does show me.


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[kehlis]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Yeah... I won't say it can't work, but I also can't think of pitchers who ever threw over-the-top cureveballs high in the zone (on purpose). So I don't really disagree with you too much.

I think something like a slider could work, or a slurve, or a curve from a side-arm guy, since all three of those effectively move away from the strike zone anyway... And if a pitch is not in the strike zone, it really doesn't matter what height you throw it at... but I digress.

This thread, and the tangent I was responding to between ND, Speedy, and co, are both about off speed pitches in general, so changeups are mainly what I had in mind. I just want to dispel the notion that throwing off speed pitches high in the zone is exclusive to video games.

I think for the most part we are on the same page.

I think part of the difference between us is result vs. intent.

I would never argue that a breaking ball up can't EVER be effective and I don't even think ND would disagree with that.

But it's more to the fact that most pitchers would never intend to throw a high breaking ball.



One of my most memorable strikeouts in college was actually in a fall (exhibition) game against a middle of the lineup hitter from Bucknell (D1 when I was in D3) when I accidentally threw a high slurve (as the Show defines it) instead of my intention which was to start it low and have it break outside).

[NDAlum]

Re: Do you intentionally throw off speed pitches up in the zone?

Yeah... I won't say it can't work, but I also can't think of pitchers who ever threw over-the-top cureveballs high in the zone (on purpose). So I don't really disagree with you too much.



I think something like a slider could work, or a slurve, or a curve from a side-arm guy, since all three of those effectively move away from the strike zone anyway... And if a pitch is not in the strike zone, it really doesn't matter what height you throw it at... but I digress.



This thread, and the tangent I was responding to between ND, Speedy, and co, are both about off speed pitches in general, so changeups are mainly what I had in mind. I just want to dispel the notion that throwing off speed pitches high in the zone is exclusive to video games.

I'm talking about above the belt high. Like you're trying to sneak in an off speed at the top of the strike zone which I have seen in The Show very often.

The game lets you get away with it because it only has one pitching delivery per guy. It doesn't hangs based on the pitch and placement. Release points are huge and consistency with release point is crucial to a pitchers success. It's about deception. This game doesn't mimic that at all. It's one release point no matter what.


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