Previews of Top 10 at each position?

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  • JoeCoolMan24
    MVP
    • Jul 2005
    • 1255

    #46
    Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

    Originally posted by BaseballT
    First off let me say that SS is THE hardest position to rate and rank, primarily due to the fact that many, if not most, of the shortstops contributions are not statistically calculated, and if they are, have other factors. That said, if we are going to bring in Alexie, you gotta show Elvis Andrus. Elvis Andrus easily could have, and probably should have won a gold glove this year, and actually did win the defensive PLAYER of the year in the MLB awards...not just for shortstops, but for ALL players. Comparitively, range factors and sabermetrics are similar, as well as fielding %, but offensively Andrus is a monster for the Rangers. His avg is lower, as well as power numbers, but has 3 times the walks, grounded into half the DPs, more HBPs, way more Sacrifice and "productive ABs" as well as dominating in the stolen base department. Granted I am a ranger fan, but watching him was incredible because of what he does beyond the stats. And trust me when I say few SS are more exciting to watch. I mean, the dude was on web gems every night just about! Plus the baserunning, taking the extra base, making heads up plays, leading the defense and doing what NEEDS to be done to let the offense go to work. I would take him over Alexie, but both are legit SS, and both of us are biased to our loyal teams

    I think you'd be surprised how slightly above average Andrus is at fielding. Flashy plays don't really mean anything. Look at Jeter. Andrus is getting the same type of reputation in terms of they both make the highlight reels on ESPN because of flashy plays, HOWEVER, those same plays to SS like Alexei Ramirez, Brendan Ryan, Cliff Pennington, and other elite defensive SS become routine looking plays. Sometimes players FORCE themselves into making special plays because they aren't good enough to make those plays routine.

    I know that sounds weird to read, but it's true. They always say the best fielders are the ones who make everything look easy. Look at Franklin Gutierrez and Andruw Jones (when he was awesome). They both just glided to the ball and made everything look so easy.

    Alexei put up a 3.8 WAR last year (4th best in MLB), while Andrus put up a 1.5. Andrus' low WAR is mainly because of his bad offensive numbers. Hitting .265/.342/.643 with 0 HR and only 15 doubles is not going to cut it. Yes, he had 32 SB, but also 15 CS. That's a 68% success rate, which is actually negative value. The rule is that anything under 75% actually HURTS your team more than it helps. So while Alexei actually is quite bad at stealing (13 steals in 22 attempts), he is much better in almost everything else offensively, outside of OBP. His .282/.313/.744 with 18 HR, 29 2B, and 70 RBI is actually very good production from a SS, especially one who draws most of his value from his defense.

    So bottom line, I think all the stats point to Alexei being a much better player than Andrus, both offensively and defensively. I wouldn't put Andrus in the top 5, and maybe not even in the top 10. That being said, Andrus is 22-years-old, and has a LOT of time to improve, and he WAY ahead of other SS of his age.

    Comment

    • JermaineDye05
      Rookie
      • Dec 2008
      • 408

      #47
      Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

      Originally posted by Curyy94
      I sure hope you meant Hanley Ramirez is the best all around and not Alexei...
      No, I meant Alexei.

      "all-around" means taking into account both offense and defense.

      Hanley's defense is pretty subpar.

      I wouldn't call Alexei the single best shortstop in the league, because Hanley and Tulo are monsters offensively. However, "all-around," it's hard to argue with Alexei being the best.
      Last edited by JermaineDye05; 01-19-2011, 08:50 PM.

      Comment

      • Curyy94
        Banned
        • Dec 2010
        • 86

        #48
        Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

        Originally posted by JermaineDye05
        No, I meant Alexei.

        "all-around" means taking into account both offense and defense.

        Hanley's defense is pretty subpar.
        But Hanley has better speed power contact.... Alexei doesn't even compare in those fields.

        Comment

        • EnigmaNemesis
          Animal Liberation
          • Apr 2006
          • 12216

          #49
          Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

          Originally posted by Curyy94
          You can't just knock off a 1 ERA thats kind of unfair.... Like me saying put David wright in Fenway he hits 40+ homers...
          They do it all the time from analysts, to stat trackers. And even top pitchers prove it all the time when they go to the NL.

          The 1 ERA dip is nothing new to National League switching. No DH is a huge facet for it.
          Boston Red Sox | Miami Dolphins

          Comment

          • Curyy94
            Banned
            • Dec 2010
            • 86

            #50
            Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

            Originally posted by EnigmaNemesis
            They do it all the time from analysts, to stat trackers. And even top pitchers prove it all the time when they go to the NL.

            The 1 ERA dip is nothing new to National League switching. No DH is a huge facet for it.
            Theirs cases where pitchers get worst too though. Johan Santana who was probably the bets AL pitcher when on the Twins declined serverly in the NL.

            If I'm not mistaken i think that happend to dan haren too, not sure though.

            Comment

            • sk
              God's Son.
              • Mar 2010
              • 515

              #51
              Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

              Originally posted by EnigmaNemesis
              They do it all the time from analysts, to stat trackers. And even top pitchers prove it all the time when they go to the NL.

              The 1 ERA dip is nothing new to National League switching. No DH is a huge facet for it.
              No that's just dumb. Roy Halladay's ERA didn't dip 1 whole point and he went from the best offensive division to one of the worst.
              "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed"

              Comment

              • JermaineDye05
                Rookie
                • Dec 2008
                • 408

                #52
                Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                Originally posted by Curyy94
                But Hanley has better speed power contact.... Alexei doesn't even compare in those fields.
                He still can't defend.

                Comment

                • Curyy94
                  Banned
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 86

                  #53
                  Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                  Originally posted by JermaineDye05
                  He still can't defend.
                  So I take Jack Wilson is also better all-around shortstop than Hanley is..

                  Comment

                  • sk
                    God's Son.
                    • Mar 2010
                    • 515

                    #54
                    Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                    Originally posted by JermaineDye05
                    No, I meant Alexei.

                    "all-around" means taking into account both offense and defense.

                    Hanley's defense is pretty subpar.

                    I wouldn't call Alexei the single best shortstop in the league, because Hanley and Tulo are monsters offensively. However, "all-around," it's hard to argue with Alexei being the best.
                    This has got to be the biggest homer comment.

                    Sure Alexei has better defense than Hanley, but Hanley's speed power and batting average far outweighs whatever deficit his defense puts him in.

                    Tulo is better on both offense and defense.

                    Jose Reyes, when healthy, is better.

                    Jimmy Rollins is better.

                    Rafael Furcal is better.

                    etc.
                    "I've missed more than 9000 shots in my career. I've lost almost 300 games. 26 times, I've been trusted to take the game winning shot and missed. I've failed over and over and over again in my life. And that is why I succeed"

                    Comment

                    • Curyy94
                      Banned
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 86

                      #55
                      Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                      Originally posted by krisxsong
                      This has got to be the biggest homer comment.

                      Sure Alexei has better defense than Hanley, but Hanley's speed power and batting average far outweighs whatever deficit his defense puts him in.

                      Tulo is better on both offense and defense.

                      Jose Reyes, when healthy, is better.

                      Jimmy Rollins is better.

                      Rafael Furcal is better.

                      etc.
                      Furcal and Rollins are comparable. But I agree that Jose reyes, Troy Tulowitzky, and Hanley Ramirez aren't only better,,,,but WAY better.

                      Comment

                      • JermaineDye05
                        Rookie
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 408

                        #56
                        Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                        Originally posted by Curyy94
                        So I take Jack Wilson is also better all-around shortstop than Hanley is..
                        No, because Jack Wilson can't hit for ****.

                        Just because Hanley has more power and speed than Alexei, doesn't make him a better all-around player. He's still lacking heavily on the defensive end.

                        You have to take into account every facet of the player's game.

                        While Hanley is certainly a better power hitter and base stealer than Alexei, his game is pretty much strictly offensive. While Alexei can help you not only at the plate and on the basepaths, but also in the field.

                        Comment

                        • Curyy94
                          Banned
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 86

                          #57
                          Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                          Originally posted by JermaineDye05
                          No, because Jack Wilson can't hit for ****.

                          Just because Hanley has more power and speed than Alexei, doesn't make him a better all-around player. He's still lacking heavily on the defensive end.

                          You have to take into account every facet of the player's game.

                          While Hanley is certainly a better power hitter and base stealer than Alexei, his game is pretty much strictly offensive. While Alexei can help you not only at the plate and on the basepaths, but also in the field.
                          If thats the case Jose Reyes or Tulo would be best all around.

                          Comment

                          • JermaineDye05
                            Rookie
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 408

                            #58
                            Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                            Originally posted by Curyy94
                            If thats the case Jose Reyes or Tulo would be best all around.
                            Jose Reyes' defense has been lacking of late.

                            http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...0&season1=2010

                            He also lacks the power.

                            I'll agree with Tulo. I overlooked him.
                            Last edited by JermaineDye05; 01-19-2011, 09:10 PM.

                            Comment

                            • EnigmaNemesis
                              Animal Liberation
                              • Apr 2006
                              • 12216

                              #59
                              Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                              Originally posted by krisxsong
                              No that's just dumb. Roy Halladay's ERA didn't dip 1 whole point and he went from the best offensive division to one of the worst.
                              He also did not pitch well below a 2.78 ERA with a full season in the AL like he did in the NL.

                              Most of his solid years with full games were in the 3.2+ range, the last two years in the AL he was steady 2.78, to dip big time to a 2.44 in the NL, and will more than likely go even lower.

                              It just an average they toss around in the stat world. I didnt make it up. But you would be silly to think pitchers hitting are not rally killers in a lineup without a DH. And it does prove more beneficial for dominant pitchers in the NL with deeper games. Or ones at the end of their careers knowing they pitch less strenuous in the NL (ala Pedro).
                              Last edited by EnigmaNemesis; 01-19-2011, 09:12 PM.
                              Boston Red Sox | Miami Dolphins

                              Comment

                              • EnigmaNemesis
                                Animal Liberation
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 12216

                                #60
                                Re: Previews of Top 10 at each position?

                                Originally posted by Curyy94
                                Theirs cases where pitchers get worst too though. Johan Santana who was probably the bets AL pitcher when on the Twins declined serverly in the NL.

                                If I'm not mistaken i think that happend to dan haren too, not sure though.
                                Johan has his best ERA of his career with the Mets, and had a few injuries in 09, which he still had an ERA under 3.20... and under 3 last year.
                                Boston Red Sox | Miami Dolphins

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