The CPU decides the game....

[SoxFan01605]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

In my humble opinion, Bigtone has a much more valid point than people give him credit for. There is a fine line sports video games have to walk between simulation and fun. No doubt it is hard to do. This is a great game. BUT - I have been playing his game religiously since the Ps2 days and it appears in the last 2 years SCEA has crossed that line.

I am Met fan. I know my team sucks. If I wanted to watch the misery of having Jason Bay hit .220 I would just turn on the TV every night. Why do i have to be subjected to it playing vide games as well? The whole point is supposed to be this virtual world where I could make the Mets condensers if I try hard enough. I don't want Bay or every other player to be like Barry Bonds don't get me wrong....but i at least want the chance to have that kind of season if MY USER INPUT is up to par.

Big tone - i empathize with you brother.

Hmm...I see your overall point, I think, but I have to disagree about your "last two years" comment if it relates to user input (since that's the topic at hand...if we're jus talking "fun" then that's subjective and feel free to ignore the rest). The aspect of user input has clearly been a conscious focus at SCEA and has seen significant improvement. If anything, in the last 2 years, the user control has been higher than ever in this series.

Fielding, while still a long way from where a lot of us want it, is far less frustrating than it was. We finally have a zone hitting system (not the hybrid of the past), and analog pitching allows so much manipulation of location, it's crazy (I like the gesture pitching of 2K, but The Show, despite offering less "work" to make a pitch, actually offer's more control here).

So while we can go on and on about whether or not the OP has a point (one I'd be far more to inclined to take seriously if it wasn't littered with hyperbole, fallacy, and ranting), the notion that user input has decreased in the last couple of years wouldn't be part of that point IMO.

I'll also say that, if people don't like the core approach to this baseball game, I can understand, but they're NEVER going to be happy. It's not going to change. I think this is the disconnect for many gamers with many games. The same can be said for the various EA and 2K franchises, etc.

The fundamental feel and approach to the game is going to always have the same flavor. If someone's looking for improvement or fine tuning of the given approach, that's one thing. However, if they are unhappy with the base feel of the game, then it's likely better to move on, as it's only going to disappoint. If you look at a lot of the repeated complaints in any game forum here, it seems a lot of people need to just move on...lol.

[Glenn33]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

I don't want to move on - I actualy love the game. I love their approach. I just think they put a tad too much emphasis on ratings and other stuff (non user input) and it hinders my enjoyment at times. That's all.

..and Jason bay really sucks in this game.

[Knight165]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

Again I ask though.
Even if you have perfect timing(or even perfect/perfect)
What happens when the CPU has the same as the pitcher?
Do you think you should get the "call" every time?
I don't.
This is very much a ratings and animation based game.....and ratings will play a large part in the outcomes of your plays.
If you expect otherwise, you're putting yourself in line for frustration and disappointment.

IMO the blend is very good right now and tipping it any further in the other direction would be a "mistake".

M.K.
Knight165

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

There have been numerous times where I have had multiple runners on, close game, 2 outs, battled the pitcher in a 2-2 count, and then end up K'ing with a perfectly timed swing because the pitch was middle down and the PCI was high away, or vice versa. This can be frustrating because I, as a gamer, did everything I could but failed because the AI controls BOTH the PCI and where the pitcher throws the ball.

This is acceptable to me because a lot of ratings likely go into it. Pitcher control, "per 9" ratings, pitcher and batter clutch, etc. I figure it plays "realistic" and I also had other chances in the at bat to do damage.

The part I find completely unacceptable is when I have multiple runners on base and my 2-5 hitters up and they get an up and center mistake on the first pitch and either foul it off, hit it weakly, or swing and miss on a perfectly timed swing because the PCI was low and away (way away) or center low. I say this is unacceptable because (1) the hitter has good ratings, and (2) there's no way a good hitter is looking low and away or low center in an 0-0 count, with men on base. They are looking for a pitch to drive. The problem is that when they get that pitch, the AI has "logic'd" that they should be looking elsewhere in that count.

It is VERY possible that the pitcher was "aiming" low and away, and that the good hitter's ratings meant that he "guessed right" on the low and away location, but the pitcher missed his spot.

But, by default almost, the PCI should be centered on the first pitch. I coach youth travel teams, and in our handbook I include our "swing zone" based on the number of strikes, in order to teach good hitting approaches. With zero strikes, you're looking for a pitch in a very small box middle or middle in. With 1-strike, the box is a little bigger, and with 2-strikes, you're trying to cover the whole zone, or more realistically, the outer or bottom half.

This approach is used extensively in the upper levels, and I would like to see that represented in the most realistic video game on the market.

In a run scoring situation, a 84 contact, 91 power, 86 discipline hitter should not be looking low and away on the 1st pitch. Ever.

It's probably an easy fix in code, and I'd like to see that change made.

I can handle the AI "deciding" some things based on ratings. It's a necessity in order to have the game play realistically. But part of realism is realistic approaches in various situations.

[jkra0512]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

Again I ask though.
Even if you have perfect timing(or even perfect/perfect)
What happens when the CPU has the same as the pitcher?
Do you think you should get the "call" every time?
I don't.
This is very much a ratings and animation based game.....and ratings will play a large part in the outcomes of your plays.
If you expect otherwise, you're putting yourself in line for frustration and disappointment.

IMO the blend is very good right now and tipping it any further in the other direction would be a "mistake".

M.K.
Knight165

And don't the "experts" say that good pitching beats good hitting any day of the week?

[Knight165]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

And don't the "experts" say that good pitching beats good hitting any day of the week?

When 33% success is considered awesome...I'd say yes!

M.K.
Knight165

[SoxFan01605]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

I don't want to move on - I actualy love the game. I love their approach. I just think they put a tad too much emphasis on ratings and other stuff (non user input) and it hinders my enjoyment at times. That's all.

..and Jason bay really sucks in this game.

Yeah, that wasn't directed at you....just a general observation. Like I said, I get your overall point.

My only point was that people in general act as though these games are going to change at their core. They never do. So if someone's not happy with the core approach to the point where they have nothing but complaints, then that isn't going to change.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

There have been numerous times where I have had multiple runners on, close game, 2 outs, battled the pitcher in a 2-2 count, and then end up K'ing with a perfectly timed swing because the pitch was middle down and the PCI was high away, or vice versa. This can be frustrating because I, as a gamer, did everything I could but failed because the AI controls BOTH the PCI and where the pitcher throws the ball.

This is acceptable to me because a lot of ratings likely go into it. Pitcher control, "per 9" ratings, pitcher and batter clutch, etc. I figure it plays "realistic" and I also had other chances in the at bat to do damage.

The part I find completely unacceptable is when I have multiple runners on base and my 2-5 hitters up and they get an up and center mistake on the first pitch and either foul it off, hit it weakly, or swing and miss on a perfectly timed swing because the PCI was low and away (way away) or center low. I say this is unacceptable because (1) the hitter has good ratings, and (2) there's no way a good hitter is looking low and away or low center in an 0-0 count, with men on base. They are looking for a pitch to drive. The problem is that when they get that pitch, the AI has "logic'd" that they should be looking elsewhere in that count.

It is VERY possible that the pitcher was "aiming" low and away, and that the good hitter's ratings meant that he "guessed right" on the low and away location, but the pitcher missed his spot.

But, by default almost, the PCI should be centered on the first pitch. I coach youth travel teams, and in our handbook I include our "swing zone" based on the number of strikes, in order to teach good hitting approaches. With zero strikes, you're looking for a pitch in a very small box middle or middle in. With 1-strike, the box is a little bigger, and with 2-strikes, you're trying to cover the whole zone, or more realistically, the outer or bottom half.

This approach is used extensively in the upper levels, and I would like to see that represented in the most realistic video game on the market.

In a run scoring situation, a 84 contact, 91 power, 86 discipline hitter should not be looking low and away on the 1st pitch. Ever.

It's probably an easy fix in code, and I'd like to see that change made.

I can handle the AI "deciding" some things based on ratings. It's a necessity in order to have the game play realistically. But part of realism is realistic approaches in various situations.

I see where you're coming from on this, but it's a slippery slope.

Last night I had the same exact thing happen to me:

Runners on 1st and 2nd with no one out. I'm hitting, and trailing 2-1. A-Rod is at-bat.

1st pitch, I swing. The ball is a cookie!

Yet, I swing and miss. Why? Alex was apparently looking low and away and not dead red.

In years past, I actually found this series slightly too offense driven. It was nearly impossible to keep a realistic team batting average. This year, with Timing Only, I truly believe that SCEA finally hammered this issue for me down.

Unlike you, Triplethreat, I'm completely okay with circumstances such as the one I presented above. What I left out was who was pitching: Justin Verlander. And how he was doing: Incredible. At that point 6+ innings, 3BB and 9K. And his confidence meter status: very high. And his pitch confidence at the time: two pitches completely and almost all four maxed out. And A-Rod's day: 0-1 with 2BB. And the fact that I got away with a similar mistake earlier in the game...

Isn't the real issue here the feedback analysis screen itself? If the screen told me that the PCI was looking up and away, would anyone have cared about my miss? Would I even have remembered it today? Probably not.

I don't want to see SCEA do anything drastic with this. They really nailed BA this time around. Give me more solid contact on perfectly timed swings, and you'll quickly see my .260 turn into .280. NOT REALISTIC AT ALL.

[TripleThreat1973]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

Perhaps.

During the CWS they have done an excellent job with high speed cameras showing how batters can miss high fastballs with perfectly timed swings due to their hands being beneath the ball. The ball lierally goes a 1/2 inch over the barrel of the bat. Same thing with swinging over a low splitter.

That's the situations I envision when a batter swings through a high pitch with a low PCI.

But to not have the best hitters "looking center" on the 1st pitch is very unrealistic. It's rare that a good hitter gets a cookie in that situation. But there's really no good reason to have them looking on the border with no strikes. Hitters that take that approach don't last in MLB. Any hitter that swings low and away on the first pitch is said to have "gotten himself out". It happens, but not often with good hitters.

Looking at league wide data on "centered pitches" illustrates well how that location turns a poor hitter into a good one.

The situation of a good hitter getting a cookie on 0-0 in the game doesn't happen enough to significantly raise team batting averages. Even on those pitches, they'll make an out 5-6 times out of 10.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

Perhaps.

During the CWS they have done an excellent job with high speed cameras showing how batters can miss high fastballs with perfectly timed swings due to their hands being beneath the ball. The ball lierally goes a 1/2 inch over the barrel of the bat. Same thing with swinging over a low splitter.

That's the situations I envision when a batter swings through a high pitch with a low PCI.

But to not have the best hitters "looking center" on the 1st pitch is very unrealistic. It's rare that a good hitter gets a cookie in that situation. But there's really no good reason to have them looking on the border with no strikes. Hitters that take that approach don't last in MLB. Any hitter that swings low and away on the first pitch is said to have "gotten himself out". It happens, but not often with good hitters.

Looking at league wide data on "centered pitches" illustrates well how that location turns a poor hitter into a good one.

The situation of a good hitter getting a cookie on 0-0 in the game doesn't happen enough to significantly raise team batting averages. Even on those pitches, they'll make an out 5-6 times out of 10.

You make some good points there. Especially the '5-6 times out of 10' example. Cookies like that one with A-Rod are rare, which is probably why I clicked L3.

Again, I think the 'issue' isn't in the misses themselves. It's in the feedback.

[miamikris]

Again I ask though.
Even if you have perfect timing(or even perfect/perfect)
What happens when the CPU has the same as the pitcher?
Do you think you should get the "call" every time?
I don't.
This is very much a ratings and animation based game.....and ratings will play a large part in the outcomes of your plays.
If you expect otherwise, you're putting yourself in line for frustration and disappointment.

IMO the blend is very good right now and tipping it any further in the other direction would be a "mistake".

M.K.
Knight165

Couldn't agree more.Well said Mk

[bockclock]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

So you have two options. Switch to a different hitting style or change your sliders. The developers aimed for realistic averages with timing hitting. If all it took was to decide when to swing at the right time in real life to hit, batting averages would be astronomical. It makes sense they wanted to keep it realistic by default, otherwise it would be too easy. I think that's what the developers had in mind when they decided to aim for realistic averages.

But apparently you guys are asking for more than this. You complain about how there is not enough user impact on the game. Well how much user impact do you expect the game to incorporate when all you provide is the timing of a button press? If you want to feel in control, switch to zone, otherwise, change the sliders. Since they give you sliders that specifically target the issue at hand, why are you so opposed to changing them? I can't understand it.

[bronko3]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

So you have two options. Switch to a different hitting style or change your sliders. The developers aimed for realistic averages with timing hitting. If all it took was to decide when to swing at the right time in real life to hit, batting averages would be astronomical. It makes sense they wanted to keep it realistic by default, otherwise it would be too easy. I think that's what the developers had in mind when they decided to aim for realistic averages.

But apparently you guys are asking for more than this. You complain about how there is not enough user impact on the game. Well how much user impact do you expect the game to incorporate when all you provide is the timing of a button press? If you want to feel in control, switch to zone, otherwise, change the sliders. Since they give you sliders that specifically target the issue at hand, why are you so opposed to changing them? I can't understand it.

I like this post. I will say myself, I was struggling badly to hit on default sliders even on Veteran level (I'm wasn't willing to hit on Rookie, lol). So I tweaked the sliders to match my skill level and now I love hitting on this game. I started out on Timing hitting and ended up switching to Zone hitting with 1/4 Guess Pitch (I only guess location, never the pitch type). And while I did end up moving the sliders strongly in my favor as a hitter, I still get meatballs down the plate that I hit for pop-ups. I like it that way though because if I crushed the ball every time I had a pitch lined up, I would be scoring way too many runs per game. As it stands, I have managed to tweak the hitting aspect to where I can get satisfying end results without it being too easy or too hard. There is simply no way they can tune the game out of the box to satisfy everyone so to me that is why sliders exist.

[Galvatron]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

I don't want to move on - I actualy love the game. I love their approach. I just think they put a tad too much emphasis on ratings and other stuff (non user input) and it hinders my enjoyment at times. That's all.

..and Jason bay really sucks in this game.

And this is with zone hitting, no Guess Pitch, on All star. Currently he is my hottest hitter and just came off a 14 game hitting streak, the longest I've ever had playing this game the last six years.

Seriously tho, zone hitting with decreased pitch speed would solve a number of the problems I've read here IMO. Together with practice and adjusted sliders user input can be very effective. Now that's not to say EVERY hitter will bat over .300, in fact I expect Bay to cool down considerably soon and fall back to his .260 to .270 hitting self, I'm just saying instead of calling for change in the dev's methods, how about giving zone hitting a shot. It's as much user input as you'll ever get in this game.

[jr86]

Re: The CPU decides the game....

In my humble opinion, Bigtone has a much more valid point than people give him credit for. There is a fine line sports video games have to walk between simulation and fun. No doubt it is hard to do. This is a great game. BUT - I have been playing his game religiously since the Ps2 days and it appears in the last 2 years SCEA has crossed that line.

I am Met fan. I know my team sucks. If I wanted to watch the misery of having Jason Bay hit .220 I would just turn on the TV every night. Why do i have to be subjected to it playing vide games as well? The whole point is supposed to be this virtual world where I could make the Mets condensers if I try hard enough. I don't want Bay or every other player to be like Barry Bonds don't get me wrong....but i at least want the chance to have that kind of season if MY USER INPUT is up to par.

Big tone - i empathize with you brother.

Honestly i just cannot understand this statement or the OP's for that matter.
You don't have to be subjected to it while playing this game?
You can make it as easy or as hard as you want it to be by changing the sliders.
Are you telling me as others have posted (spit bubble) that if you raise all of your hitting sliders that you are not going to raise your average/hits/runs etc...?
While at default, i will agree that it is very hard to get a decent batting average and a reason why practically every slider making has raised some or all of their hitting sliders for the human.
If you want Jason Bay for instance to hit .350 then raise your sliders it's as simple as that imo.