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  • tha_show256
    Rookie
    • Mar 2010
    • 390

    #271
    Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

    [QUOTE=hapa17;2045781171]If the main concern is the play tight/deny feature, then couldn't there be a compromise rather than stripping out the whole system? Couldn't we keep the PnR settings (over/under, and hard/soft hedge and double/switch)? Or perhaps there could be a "defensive style" switch: "simulation" to set all your matchups manually or "quick" to use the PoE system. Perhaps with the sag/tight/deny setting, maybe you reintroduce it with "help off of" and "don't help off of" as the options, which simply makes it so the defender doesn't drift to help as much; not necessarily to cheat the passing lane. Perhaps each defender's D-Awareness rating (or create a "D-Help" rating) could affect how well they follow the "Help" setting. Good team defenders (like, say, Battier) have a higher "Help" rating so they will stay with their assignment rather than help. Poor team defenders (like, say, Kobe ... sorry, but it's true) will tend to drift more and get caught with their pants down on a long skip pass to their assignment. Bottom line, I don't need my defenders to jump passing lanes, I just need them not to help off of specific dead-eye shooters. I was calling for this for a year or two before the manual defensive settings were introduced years ago.

    I recall in the book "Seven Seconds or Less," the Phoenix coaching staff said Nash wasn't a terrible defender one on one, he just had a tendency to drift, thus hurting the team defense (correct me if I'm wrong; it's been a while since I read it). This is the kind of nuance that a help/team defense is based on and would be awesome to have in the game.

    Building on the idea of making the defensive settings toggle-able, maybe make it a coaching setting, similar to auto-subs. The way I use auto-subs is I will let my players auto-sub until the 4th, at which point, depending on how the game is going, I may take over. In a similar fashion, perhaps you make PoE the sort of "auto" setting where you can make general strategic decisions, but let the computer make the fine adjustments. When you take it off of the PoE setting, then you're taking the manual fine control back from the computer (with the changes I mentioned above with the "Help off of" settings). This could be something I let the computer control for the first three quarters, then take back in the 4th. I'm suggesting this because I could see how layering PoE with Defensive Settings could be conflicting or hard to integrate over each other.[/QUOTE

    The only thing is that these settings where actually in the game before the 1st patch, which no one really knows what covered or why 2k decided to remove them in the 1st place.
    I'm a diehard St. Louis Cardinals Fan!! Birds on the bat til I die!

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    • hapa17
      Rookie
      • Mar 2004
      • 380

      #272
      Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

      Originally posted by Sundown
      I still want classic defensive settings-- because it's simulation to be able to scheme and tinker-- but the addition of help/don't help off of settings would be spectacular. It seems so simple, obvious, and powerful I'm suprised I haven't seen it suggested.
      To be clear, I'm suggesting the "Help/Don't help off of" setting to be used in addition to all the classic screen options. Playing the passing lanes (tight/deny) shouldn't really be a setting because it's obvious a coach would want his players to jump the passing lanes if it's not too big of a gamble. It's like having a "sprint all the time" option. Yes, all coaches want all their players sprinting at all times. "Help/Don't help" is more of a realistic command for a coach to give his players.
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      • hapa17
        Rookie
        • Mar 2004
        • 380

        #273
        Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

        Originally posted by tha_show256
        The only thing is that these settings where actually in the game before the 1st patch, which no one really knows what covered or why 2k decided to remove them in the 1st place.
        I'm at least happy to deduce from LD2k's comment that the goal has been to find a better set of defensive strategy settings. To this point, I assumed the original settings were removed because they were leading to some sort of crashes with the game or something. But it's good to know that it's not like they were trying to work them back in with the patch, they are honestly trying to find a better system. Now we can have discourse on it and I don't have to continue to postpone MyGM in the hopes that some bug is being ironed out.
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        • Kaanyr Vhok
          MVP
          • Aug 2006
          • 2248

          #274
          Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

          Originally posted by LD2k
          Feel free to put together ideal defensive strat's and settings.

          Take old system and POE into account. Will pass it on to the gameplay dev's.
          POE replaces coaching settings well. It is a poor replacement for defensive settings.

          For coaching settings. I find it more organic, simpler, and more realistic. Telling the players to crash boards or play patient or conservative is more direct and has a more tangible effect than moving sliders.

          It doesn't replace defensive settings. It shouldn't. Its 10 or so combinations vs 1000s. That's the ratio even while eliminating the stuff that didn’t work well like lose. Loose put guys in position but they would never step up and take charges and they underran plays giving up passes in the paint while momentum carried them out of bounds. Loose defense felt soft. It wasnt the strong paint defense it should have been. Some of that was fixed in NG (especially with patch 3).


          The ideal setup would separate coaching settings from defensive sets and allow more of each to be selected on the fly by using face buttons much like individual offensive plays. Certain settings could be set for one player ie using the Trail Blazers I could set Lopez, and/or Alrdige and occasionally Batum to crash offensive boards, likewise with create chaos, or play conservative for players that are good at steals or might need to tone things down to avoid foul trouble.


          The ideal setup for defensive settings would allow for sets to be saves in different packages. Better yet we would have the option to save custom setting for each team and use them online. Against the Heat I like to double Wade on drives but not LeBron I would rather switch late and contest him near the basket ceding jumpshots to Bosh if LeBron’s man fails to rotate. All of their shooters would be set to what was previously called deny. These packages would also include matchups and by 2k15 Id like CH 2k8 zone subs.

          That terminology should be changed.

          Deny worked as tight offball defense but it didn’t have the perks or penalties of denial defense unless you put it on Blake Griffin, but who does that?

          Boundaries was a good idea. What killed it?

          Deny needs new AI
          Tight could just use Deny’s AI
          Med could use Tight’s AI and Loose probably needs a slight rewrite.

          The Pick and roll settings were fine but they need a tutorial and further scouting to understand how different teams play it. I wont hold my breath on that stuff. The rosters are so clueless I’m not confident in the dev’s ability to deliver team specific sets so we might as well create them by saving settings packages.

          Like POE’s these packages would be ideally selected with face buttons independent of POE’s though POE’s could also be saved as packages too. I’m picturing the option to select five POE’s (team and player specific) and five packages. Its probably better to call the packages schemes. So five POEs, and five schemes.

          Schemes is a good word. That’s currently missing. 3 POEs isn’t enough to scheme against what teams do, utilize your team's strengths while adjusting to the talents of the other team's personnel at the same time.
          Last edited by Kaanyr Vhok; 12-19-2013, 04:26 PM.

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          • Sundown
            MVP
            • Oct 2010
            • 3269

            #275
            Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

            Also, LD2k, I want to say I am extremely happy that the Defensive Settings issue still has the dev team's attention and isn't dead and settled yet. Thanks again for coming in, asking questions, and promoting discussion.

            It is honestly one of the two most major issues I have with 2K14 Next Gen-- the other being VC balance. Coincidentally, they make up two of the biggest threads here.

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            • hapa17
              Rookie
              • Mar 2004
              • 380

              #276
              Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

              Originally posted by Sundown
              It seems so simple, obvious, and powerful I'm suprised I haven't seen it suggested.
              Not to be a smart@$$, but I went ahead and dug up a comment I made back in '09 calling for a help defense setting. Judging by the date, I must have been talking about NBA 2k9.

              http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2039276818

              I am available to hire, 2k!! (And I work in marketing and live in California, LD2k. Get at me!)
              Last edited by hapa17; 12-19-2013, 04:32 PM.
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              • ricardo.13
                Rookie
                • Nov 2009
                • 195

                #277
                Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                28 pages asking Defense settings back and devs still thinking WHY to put back...lol
                Dude, listen to their customers and put back ASAP.

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                • Vni
                  Hall Of Fame
                  • Sep 2011
                  • 14810

                  #278
                  Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                  Bring back individual defensive settings and make every adjustment coast 5000 VC. And to balance the play tight setting make it 25K VC.

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                  • Sundown
                    MVP
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 3269

                    #279
                    Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                    Originally posted by Vni
                    They should have looked into why play tight was overpowered rather than take away control from the player. If you play tight and deny passing line all game your players should suffer very early fatigue, fast players should be able to blow by the defensive player who play them too high and also start to cut more backdoor. It's the easy way out to remove control to hide a flaw within the game.
                    It's like we're telepathically linked! Or it could just be something mundane like decent basketball sense. :P

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                    • Vni
                      Hall Of Fame
                      • Sep 2011
                      • 14810

                      #280
                      Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                      Originally posted by Sundown
                      It's like we're telepathically linked! Or it could just be something mundane like decent basketball sense. :P
                      I think they'd like my other proposition better though.

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                      • tha_show256
                        Rookie
                        • Mar 2010
                        • 390

                        #281
                        Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                        Originally posted by hapa17
                        I'm at least happy to deduce from LD2k's comment that the goal has been to find a better set of defensive strategy settings. To this point, I assumed the original settings were removed because they were leading to some sort of crashes with the game or something. But it's good to know that it's not like they were trying to work them back in with the patch, they are honestly trying to find a better system. Now we can have discourse on it and I don't have to continue to postpone MyGM in the hopes that some bug is being ironed out.
                        I see where you are coming from...I'm very happy we are getting communication. That in itself is encouraging.
                        I'm a diehard St. Louis Cardinals Fan!! Birds on the bat til I die!

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                        • Kaanyr Vhok
                          MVP
                          • Aug 2006
                          • 2248

                          #282
                          Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                          Originally posted by alabamarob
                          I don't know either. I know the on ball boost makes everyone slide their feet unrealistically well, especially the bigs. I have lowered the def awareness and I do see lower rated defenders responding to my button input slower. On default SIM hof every defender is in every passing lane stealing passes, rotating perfectly on all drives and passes and blocking every shot they possibly can without falling for pump fakes.
                          There was room to raise the overall onball defense.

                          I wasnt seeing that onball boost helping bigs. Bigs were so slow in switches it simply keeps them up to speed. The reality is Aldridge isnt that much worse than Lillard against PGs like he is in 2k14 and Lillard only has a 70. Lopez is pretty bad in the game and in real life but he rarely switches and even when he does he sags and gives up threes. Guys dont blow by him. I lower Lillard's speed by ten points and I have no problem getting to the hoop or getting step back threes off switches. This isnt 2k7 or 10 bigs are not that good at onball defense.

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                          • dipset2050
                            Rookie
                            • Oct 2004
                            • 77

                            #283
                            Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                            I can't be the only person that not only feels the POEs are effective but deem the previous defensive settings to be unnecessary. I see where 2K is going with this and I love it. I don't think any of you are going to like having the old system back BC you didn't like the old system when you had it! That's the pont they're trying to make. The system now is great, not perfect, but superior to thee previous one. There are ways to deal with everything in this game, including P&R with POE. In the NBA, an offense is going to get the better of a defense regardless of scheme eventually so to answer the previous post, if you have a team with to penetrators and three shooter, well you gotta keep the man in front of you. Simple enough. Make people take and make contested jumpers. I think the bigger problem is player movement but that has been indicated as being addressed to a degree. I hope 2K simply explains how POEs work in detail so people can use them. I'm 85% sure how they work so maybe that's why I'm having more success and do not want anything changed.

                            Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk

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                            • hapa17
                              Rookie
                              • Mar 2004
                              • 380

                              #284
                              Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                              Originally posted by dipset2050
                              I can't be the only person that not only feels the POEs are effective but deem the previous defensive settings to be unnecessary. I see where 2K is going with this and I love it. I don't think any of you are going to like having the old system back BC you didn't like the old system when you had it! That's the pont they're trying to make. The system now is great, not perfect, but superior to thee previous one. There are ways to deal with everything in this game, including P&R with POE. In the NBA, an offense is going to get the better of a defense regardless of scheme eventually so to answer the previous post, if you have a team with to penetrators and three shooter, well you gotta keep the man in front of you. Simple enough. Make people take and make contested jumpers. I think the bigger problem is player movement but that has been indicated as being addressed to a degree. I hope 2K simply explains how POEs work in detail so people can use them. I'm 85% sure how they work so maybe that's why I'm having more success and do not want anything changed.

                              Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
                              if that's indeed the case, then please sign me up for a dev insight on it (and please let it be as instructional as possible!).
                              OG
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                              • Optik
                                MVP
                                • Aug 2012
                                • 1025

                                #285
                                Re: Defensive Settings Completely Removed from Next-Gen.

                                Originally posted by dipset2050
                                I can't be the only person that not only feels the POEs are effective but deem the previous defensive settings to be unnecessary. I see where 2K is going with this and I love it. I don't think any of you are going to like having the old system back BC you didn't like the old system when you had it! That's the pont they're trying to make. The system now is great, not perfect, but superior to thee previous one.
                                No one was clamouring for the defensive settings to be replaced. Just that it should be fixed, so that hedge actually means hedge. It's no surprise really that they've replaced it with something simpler (do not read: better) . It was their same "solution" to the fact that OAs have been broken for 3 years now.
                                Originally posted by Dogslax41
                                Most people that are asking for a simulation game don’t really want a simulation game because its too hard.

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