Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

[ch46647]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

The double teams are still happening all the time, leaving shooters and big men wide open under the basket. For me, this is close to a game breaker. (Play now- user vs CPU.. HOF with simworld roster/sliders)

Mike- Please disable the CPU double teams in the next patch. Or make them only trigger on a pick and roll, or elite post man when backing down.

[jyoung]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Bad rotations and blown assignments happen all the time in the NBA. So did 2k intentionally include this to replicate real life bball? Low defensive IQ players are more susceptible to these mistakes.

Maybe 2k was trying to simulate this "realism"?

What are your thoughts? Perfect defense can't be played all game long.

I can live with low defensive IQ players making mistakes.

But right now in this game, some of the highest rated defensive players OF ALL TIME are making horrible defensive mistakes.

Here are some big issues that I've seen happening frequently this year:

1) Blocking fouls being called for no good reason when there is extremely minimal contact along the perimeter:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=54s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=121s

Those started being called a ton more often after patch 1.05 for some reason.

2) AI teammates not obeying the pick & roll settings that you've set up.

In this example, CPU Ben Wallace is set to "no hedge" and "tight" defense on DeMarcus Cousins but still leaves him wide open on the fade:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=147s

3) Defenders backing completely off their man or just having terrible defensive positioning while the ball is being dribbled up the court.

CPU Micheal Ray Richardson got hit with this bug three times in only two quarters of play:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=408s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=427s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=625s

CPU Michael Cooper also can't figure out how to position himself when his man is dribbling the ball upcourt:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=483s

These problems aren't isolated instances, but instead, are things that happens multiple times per game, even to the highest rated defensive players in NBA 2K17.

The defense this year just isn't functioning as intended.

I don't need to document how slow defenders are to react to off-ball screens, because sampham already covered that in great detail a few weeks ago. Staggered off-ball screens have about a 90% success rate in generating an open shot in this game right now. Your defense is pretty much screwed on those staggered screen plays if you don't see them coming ahead of time and switch over to manually control the off-ball defender.

[fluent2332]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

I can live with low defensive IQ players making mistakes.

But right now in this game, some of the highest rated defensive players OF ALL TIME are making horrible defensive mistakes.

Here are some big issues that I've seen happening frequently this year:

1) Blocking fouls being called for no good reason when there is extremely minimal contact along the perimeter:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=54s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=121s

Those started being called a ton more often after patch 1.05 for some reason.

2) AI teammates not obeying the pick & roll settings that you've set up.

In this example, CPU Ben Wallace is set to "no hedge" and "tight" defense on DeMarcus Cousins but still leaves him wide open on the fade:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=147s

3) Defenders backing completely off their man or just having terrible defensive positioning while the ball is being dribbled up the court.

CPU Micheal Ray Richardson got hit with this bug three times in only two quarters of play:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=408s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=427s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=625s

CPU Michael Cooper also can't figure out how to position himself when his man is dribbling the ball upcourt:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=483s

These problems aren't isolated instances, but instead, are things that happens multiple times per game, even to the highest rated defensive players in NBA 2K17.

The defense this year just isn't functioning as intended.

I don't need to document how slow defenders are to react to off-ball screens, because sampham already covered that in great detail a few weeks ago. Staggered off-ball screens have about a 90% success rate in generating an open shot in this game right now. Your defense is pretty much screwed on those staggered screen plays if you don't see them coming ahead of time and switch over to manually control the off-ball defender.

Wow. I didn't realize it was that bad.

[Scramz718]

Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Things like this should never happen.


http://xboxclips.com/Scramz%20B/38e8...2d801f75/embed

Why is Dan Marley drifting to the sideline and disregarding his assignment? This happens a couple of times a game. They're also occasions when your wing defender drift to the sideline and bumps into the coach or ref. Then go into an animation so you can't control the for a sec.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

I can live with low defensive IQ players making mistakes.

But right now in this game, some of the highest rated defensive players OF ALL TIME are making horrible defensive mistakes.

Here are some big issues that I've seen happening frequently this year:

1) Blocking fouls being called for no good reason when there is extremely minimal contact along the perimeter:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=54s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=121s

Those started being called a ton more often after patch 1.05 for some reason.

2) AI teammates not obeying the pick & roll settings that you've set up.

In this example, CPU Ben Wallace is set to "no hedge" and "tight" defense on DeMarcus Cousins but still leaves him wide open on the fade:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=147s

3) Defenders backing completely off their man or just having terrible defensive positioning while the ball is being dribbled up the court.

CPU Micheal Ray Richardson got hit with this bug three times in only two quarters of play:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=408s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=427s

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=625s

CPU Michael Cooper also can't figure out how to position himself when his man is dribbling the ball upcourt:

https://youtu.be/W1ljPtbiRYM?t=483s

These problems aren't isolated instances, but instead, are things that happens multiple times per game, even to the highest rated defensive players in NBA 2K17.

The defense this year just isn't functioning as intended.

I don't need to document how slow defenders are to react to off-ball screens, because sampham already covered that in great detail a few weeks ago. Staggered off-ball screens have about a 90% success rate in generating an open shot in this game right now. Your defense is pretty much screwed on those staggered screen plays if you don't see them coming ahead of time and switch over to manually control the off-ball defender.

Very nicely laid out.

Like you and Begby, blown assignments happen, defensive failures happen. But in basketball, they don't look like those clips. 2K just remains unable to write transition code that looks like basketball, both for CPU and users.

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Your videos do highlight some weaknesses that need to be addressed, and Im sure they will be.

But I have no idea how you can play on a black court. It felt like I was going to have a seizure.

[jfsolo]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

We know from hearing them speak, and reading their written words that many of the designers on this team have a very high level of basketball knowledge. I simply do not understand where the disconnect is happening in terms of implementation of rudimentary basketball concepts.

The self imposed or mandated silence about why certain fundamental aspects of gameplay have regressed over the last few versions makes things even worse.

[keshunleon]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Things like this should never happen.


http://xboxclips.com/Scramz%20B/38e8...2d801f75/embed

Why is Dan Marley drifting to the sideline and disregarding his assignment? This happens a couple of times a game. They're also occasions when your wing defender drift to the sideline and bumps into the coach or ref. Then go into an animation so you can't control the for a sec.

Happens ALL THE TIME!

[meccs]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Just found this, good demonstration:

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FQHUZBW93yY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

[info0]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

If 2K thinks this game is E-Sports ready, they are delusional. This game is NOT eSports ready game.

It's not a game where you control the players. You control the animations. There is no skill involved, just who can control animation faster, who has faster animations, wins.

The defense is broken. No matter what you set up.

The momentum swings happen A LOT of times. Your players with 90+ passing rating, will start passing to opponents or out of bounds all of the sudden, you will get stupid calls like travelling, blocking/charging fouls out of nowhere, your players will miss open shots or dunks. Just so opposition can get back into game.

THIS IS NOT SKILL. THIS IS JUST BAD PROGRAMMING. Pretty much, one can think, what 2K has is FIFA handicap system, but much more eerie version of it.

Sorry, but I was hyped for 2k17. Hell, WITHOUT any patches, this game was the best NBA VC made in years. Now after 5 patches, the game feels WORSE than 2k16...

How bad CPU defense is? How bad ACE is?

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/VZCGc1MCqsE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Sam Pham explained it already. Yes, he is abusing AI here, but according to 2k, ACE should stop you after you tried exact same move 2 times in a row. Well... Doesn't happen, now does it?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

For those agreeing with Sam's video, have any of you tried to recreate what he saw?

Because I did and got completely different results.

Try for yourselves.

[info0]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

For those agreeing with Sam's video, have any of you tried to recreate what he saw?

Because I did and got completely different results.

Try for yourselves.

I did and got exact same results. Tadam. On PS4.

You run PnR with Cavaliers set with Motion Cuts. You can literally MURDER HoF AI with this.

I don't do it as it's quite an exploit, but this thing worked in EVERY NBA 2k game for last 3 years now. You had 4-on-1 exploit in 2k16 too. Was funny.

I play NBA 2k since 2k05 and I am not great at the game, play it for fun, searching for perfect defensive settings and blowing teams out of the water later on. But 2k17 is unplayable with a lot of scripting going on behind the scenes. This is far worse than 2k16 or 2k15. If Westbrook hits pass out of bounds or Chris Paul throws air ball alley oop, forcing u to TO, you know **** will start to happen now. It's that obvious.

One more for defense being broken claim. CPU cannot think for you like real life players do. They will try to help you out leading to open space. I get frustrated a lot by this flaw. Why would your PF/C come to help you out on perimeter in the first place when you don't have this set up. You lose ~20-25 pts thanks to that a game. Unless you can fast switch and solve the problem in time (which should NOT be the case in the first place).

Plus like I said, when the game came out, it had problems, but it played beautifully without animations grinding and stuff. Now you need to wait till animation plays out fully (so you cannot stop dribble in the middle, break out of the motion, go for drive to dunk in fluid motion - you will most likely lose the ball now).

[mongo13clikke]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

For those agreeing with Sam's video, have any of you tried to recreate what he saw?

Because I did and got completely different results.

Try for yourselves.

I tried today in MyTeam against the Warriors in Domination. If you know how to PnR and set it up correctly it works 100% I can confirm. No help, no adjustments, never. Maybe you did not setup the PnR perfectly every time (no offense) because then the cpu starts to rotate suddenly and it looks like the cpu can defend it, but not if you set it up correctly.

[meccs]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

Roughly 60-80% BUT it depends what team you play against and what you did before. If I play against the Rockets they are as dump as the Hawks in Sam's videos.
One important thing to note: I would guess Sam scored a few times with CP3 before that. The notorious double team will probably break stuff like this. The CPU will basically only watch you (the player you control) and ignores your teammates until you switch to control them. This is my experience.

[vtcha]

Re: Blown Defensive Rotations: Sim or Broken logic?

My problem is something very very basic. The defenders CONSTANTLY do not follow the most fundamental, principle rule of defense: Stay BETWEEN your man and the basket. This is allowing too many bailout offensive rebounds and cuts to the basket leading to easy lay-ups and dunks.

Completely 100% agree.

I like to play on-ball defense most of the time where I guard the opponent with the ball and it's incredibly frustrating when I can clearly see in the corner of my eye, my A.I teammate just sagging off a three-point shooter, or giving me unnecessary help. Mind you, I play on Superstar difficulty with Superstar sliders (no changes made) and ACE off.