Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

[acetheredcomet]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

I played defensive archetypes for the last two years, and post players for the two years before that. They need to boost defense heavily in 2k19, which I doubt they will do. Pure Sharps should miss 90% of their contested layups and dunks, Slashers should only be able to shoot middies at most. Shot creators should be the only ones hitting any type of moving shot but if it is contested, it should brick. They need to bring back fade ace and combine it with a new badge hook ace. Defensive archetypes should have less fouls called when they make plays, Pure playmakers should not be doing posters and limitless shots.

Restrictions are good but they need to also make it so dual builds are more viable. The “chess match” is not there if pures can do anything and defensive builds only work sometimes. A lock down should not get his ankles broken, and should only get postered if he is out of position.

All builds should be able to have some handles except centers, PGs should not be able to out rebound SF and up. No offensive archetype should be getting the amount of steals and blocks that they are getting in 2k18.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Problem is, I feel they have yet to actually portray weaknesses and then punish those weaknesses.

For example pure sharps shouldn't be able to zig zag out the shot clock and then heave up a shot from half court off the dribble. Those are supposed to be set shooters, but they can still shift you with snatchbacks and what not.

You can't sag off the pure slashers all the time because they can hit 3s for some reason. It makes strategy pointless sometimes.

Basically what I'm saying is, people can already do whatever they want to it feels like.

Playing off a slasher all the way into the paint isn't strategy, it's literally called "cheating" off your man. The problem with slashers is that we're not reliable. Sure, I'll hit 1 or two. But the best "slashers" in the game had jumpers. Jordan, Kobe, and Vince all had a mid range game before they developed a 3 ball. A 99 dunk shouldn't net me a 68 mid and a 60 3. Jordan's best years he barely shot .38 percent but he's got HOF deadeye and limitless and a 90 3 ball on this game?

I'll settle for an 80 or close middie with a 70 3 ball.

[TheMattyT]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Playing off a slasher all the way into the paint isn't strategy, it's literally called "cheating" off your man. The problem with slashers is that we're not reliable. Sure, I'll hit 1 or two. But the best "slashers" in the game had jumpers. Jordan, Kobe, and Vince all had a mid range game before they developed a 3 ball. A 99 dunk shouldn't net me a 68 mid and a 60 3. Jordan's best years he barely shot .38 percent but he's got HOF deadeye and limitless and a 90 3 ball on this game?

I'll settle for an 80 or close middie with a 70 3 ball.

Vince came in as a solid shooter. Neither Kobe nor MJ could shoot 3s very well at any point in their career. They are both more like shot-creating slashers, if we have to stay within archetypes. That gives you EXACTLY the ratings you're talking about.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Vince came in as a solid shooter. Neither Kobe nor MJ could shoot 3s very well at any point in their career. They are both more like shot-creating slashers, if we have to stay within archetypes. That gives you EXACTLY the ratings you're talking about.

Slashing shot creators are GOOD at everything and not elite in anything. That's not what I'm talking about. Maybe Jordan in the wiz might fit that mold. And I'd say Kobe would be way more PURE shot Creator than anyone else.

But rookie Jordan would be 99 everything in the paint with HOF badges and an 80 mid and a 70 deep IMO. He only shot 28 percent from deep his rookie year but the 3 ball wasn't valued that high either back then. If Jordan was re drafted right now they'd be working on his release and shooting form, plus with the way the game is played now he'd have too much spacing to not get better looks. No hand checks and with legitimate stretch bigs on the floor, Jordan would probably shoot around 35 or better.

[Housh123]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

The game turns to cheese every year because they give too much leeway ratings wise. Then smart players work around the loose ratings. Pure slashers get midrange in the 60s. We all know your hitting 8/10 of those wide open. 2k has to crackdown on that. It should be 40% make rate even with the release mastered.


Either go unrestricted or make people actually have weaknesses.

The way the game is built every position has around 3-4 magic archetypes that if you don’t pick them your basically screwed against a solid team. It shouldn’t work like that imo. 5 smart players should be able to put up a fight against any 5. I should be able to get 5 of any archetype and put up a fight against 5 of any other archetype but we all know that’s not gonna work. 5 amazing elite pure slashers will most likely lose against 5 elite lockdowns NO MATTER WHAT. Now there’s a conversation on if we think that’s how it should be but if that’s what you think then it goes back to my original point of giving archetypes DEFINED weaknesses. Pure slashers should be able to hit midranges sporadically WIDE OPEN. But NEVER 3s. But then again if it’s one on one the dunk or layup rate should be THROUGH THE ROOF. They shouldn’t get blocked one on one by ppl their same size or similar. Now if they tryna bang on 7 footers then that’s where they should struggle. Idc what your archetype is you shouldn’t be destroying 7 foot centers one on one with dunks. That’s when REALISM must be addressed.


Sharps can make 70% open 3s idc. But they should not be able to dribble at all. Give them a DEFINED weakness


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[TheFinalEvent97]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Slashing shot creators are GOOD at everything and not elite in anything. That's not what I'm talking about. Maybe Jordan in the wiz might fit that mold. And I'd say Kobe would be way more PURE shot Creator than anyone else.

But rookie Jordan would be 99 everything in the paint with HOF badges and an 80 mid and a 70 deep IMO. He only shot 28 percent from deep his rookie year but the 3 ball wasn't valued that high either back then. If Jordan was re drafted right now they'd be working on his release and shooting form, plus with the way the game is played now he'd have too much spacing to not get better looks. No hand checks and with legitimate stretch bigs on the floor, Jordan would probably shoot around 35 or better.

The poster above yours is talking about a Shot Creating Slasher, at 6'6 with default wingspan+weight it gets 96 Driving Layup, 96 Standing Layup, 92 Driving Dunk, 88 Contact Dunk, 82 Open Shot Mid-range 76 Off Dribble Mid Range, 70 Open Shot Three, HOF Acrobat, Relentless Finisher and OMFB, Gold Posterizer and Tear Dropper.

[howardphillips214]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

The poster above yours is talking about a Shot Creating Slasher, at 6'6 with default wingspan+weight it gets 96 Driving Layup, 96 Standing Layup, 92 Driving Dunk, 88 Contact Dunk, 82 Open Shot Mid-range 76 Off Dribble Mid Range, 70 Open Shot Three, HOF Acrobat, Relentless Finisher and OMFB, Gold Posterizer and Tear Dropper.

Only problem with that build is the non HOF posterizer. Plus, if you Max out wingspan for dunks you lose that 70 3 ball.

I created a playmaking slasher to speed boost and dunk but gold doesn't trigger the animations enough. The 68 mid is not as consistent as you'd think and the 64 3 ball is almost useless.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

They just need to make archetypes that play more like real basketball players to change the meta so that the whole game isn't dudes jacking threes on the fast break. The issue with archetypes is none of them represent actual players or play styles. They are built around the meta when they should define the meta. Shooters and rebounders has been it since I started playing 5v5 10 years ago. It's time to change and make it more of a chess match. There should be at least a counter meta.

Changing upgrades won't change that. It only will give people different ways to do the same thing.

-Smak

[triplechin]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

They just need to make archetypes that play more like real basketball players to change the meta so that the whole game isn't dudes jacking threes on the fast break. The issue with archetypes is none of them represent actual players or play styles. They are built around the meta when they should define the meta. Shooters and rebounders has been it since I started playing 5v5 10 years ago. It's time to change and make it more of a chess match. There should be at least a counter meta.

Changing upgrades won't change that. It only will give people different ways to do the same thing.

-Smak

Agreed, the system gives them the ability to change how the game is played easily to make it more balanced. Sick of sharpshooters hitting 80% from the hash.

[Yesh2kdone]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

They just need to make archetypes that play more like real basketball players to change the meta so that the whole game isn't dudes jacking threes on the fast break. The issue with archetypes is none of them represent actual players or play styles. They are built around the meta when they should define the meta. Shooters and rebounders has been it since I started playing 5v5 10 years ago. It's time to change and make it more of a chess match. There should be at least a counter meta.

Changing upgrades won't change that. It only will give people different ways to do the same thing.

-Smak

I wouldn't be opposed to them giving us 60ovr versions of NBA stars, so for example, if we pick say Lebron, Giannis, Steph, KD, and Harden, then we can max out those player templates until we hit what the current attribute levels of those players. We have to have to use their height/weight, but then we get to make our own multi-dimensional players as opposed to monotonous and boring archetypes. When it comes to badges, then whatever badges your template superstar has, are the badges you can earn for your player.

[EveretteWarren]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

I think they should remove archetypes too. It was cool at first but honestly kinda killed the games.

[SixGod]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

I think no matter what the next system is, people will always find a way to exploit it. Personally, I like the 2k's with unrestricted upgrades - I played more knowing I could upgrade any which way - it was truly MY player. I chose upgrades in the mold I wanted my player to be and sacrificed in areas that didn't seem important to me.

However, I think the archetype system is here to stay. What needs to be done is to tweak this system a bit.

What do you guys think about adding a 3rd archetype to your player once you hit 90 OVR? I think this also follows some NBA players' progression throughout their career.
MJ: Slasher, defender, post scorer
Kevin Love: Post scorer, rebounder, 3pt shooter

Also, a little bit off topic but I'd like to see the attributes for our primary archetype start off in the 80s - at least we'd be able to do 1 thing well and it also makes sense tied into whatever story 2k gives us. We're supposedly this hyped prospect, lets say a 3pt shooter but yet our base 3pt rating is what? 50-60?

[illwill10]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

I think no matter what the next system is, people will always find a way to exploit it. Personally, I like the 2k's with unrestricted upgrades - I played more knowing I could upgrade any which way - it was truly MY player. I chose upgrades in the mold I wanted my player to be and sacrificed in areas that didn't seem important to me.

However, I think the archetype system is here to stay. What needs to be done is to tweak this system a bit.

What do you guys think about adding a 3rd archetype to your player once you hit 90 OVR? I think this also follows some NBA players' progression throughout their career.
MJ: Slasher, defender, post scorer
Kevin Love: Post scorer, rebounder, 3pt shooter

Also, a little bit off topic but I'd like to see the attributes for our primary archetype start off in the 80s - at least we'd be able to do 1 thing well and it also makes sense tied into whatever story 2k gives us. We're supposedly this hyped prospect, lets say a 3pt shooter but yet our base 3pt rating is what? 50-60?

That plus online really affects those chances of unrestricted. I thought of third archetypes. But even now most 2nd archetypes aren't good to have unless it meshes with primary. Like no point on trying to be a 3 & D player. Either too unathletic to stop someone or have 60-70 3pt at best.
If they stay at current system, just raise the caps. With most dual archetype that don't mesh well. Your best primary ratings is 89-92 while secondary ratings is 65-80. Raise them both. Where Primary ratings could be 92-95 while Secondary ratings are 82-86. That way you could elite with your primary skill and secondary skill is good enough to be used often. Besides now if the archetypes don't mesh, you're just banking on badges for secondary skill and not elite with primary
I agree with off topic part. Every MP has been touted as a Phenom coming in, but starts around 55-60 OVR. They try to force you to buy VC to quickly progress player to play with others. My primary skills should start at 75-80. That way at least I can contribute right away. I always felt Physical ratings(athleticism) should be set from start. No player goes from 50 strength to 90+ strength or from 82 speed to 93+speed. Especially since weight never changes. So depending on Height, weight, archetype, you should set with Physical ratings. Where at most 5 upgrades for each. So can start as a 6'3 180 PG with 90 speed, but can only go up to 93 speed. That way you aren't starting up having to improve physical ratings, but you aren't maxing them

[JustCallMeSleepy]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Only problem with that build is the non HOF posterizer. Plus, if you Max out wingspan for dunks you lose that 70 3 ball.



I created a playmaking slasher to speed boost and dunk but gold doesn't trigger the animations enough. The 68 mid is not as consistent as you'd think and the 64 3 ball is almost useless.

Playmaking Slashers trigger contacts just fine. So do Slashing Shot Creators.


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[SkyWalker]

Re: Get rid of archetypes and go to an unrestricted upgrade system?

Playmaking Slashers trigger contacts just fine. So do Slashing Shot Creators.


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You're right. Those builds do trigger the animations. I originally made a 6'3" playmaking slasher (91 ovr). I shoot the 3 ball at 38% in pro am. Granted, I only take about 1-3 a game. After doing a little more research, I found out that I wasted my money on that build because I could have made a slashing shot creator that had almost identical dunking and layup attributes. It even had better badges and could dunk and shoot over anyone.