Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

You watch the NBA but do you keep a track of the stats? We'll simply say Curry is one of the best shooters in the league; I've included a chart. I personally would like to replicate the actual NBA experience. To clarify, I'm saying that I love that I can get sort of the same feeling playing 2k as watching the NBA. I love that I miss wide open shots and love that I can make contested shots because that's how it is in the real NBA. I actually hate it when I'm making all my wide open shots on Hall of Fame. If I'm seeing 3/3 or 5/5 on three points shots during the first quarter or first half even with Curry, it just doesn't feel "right."

Well after seeing those stats I stand corrected, but there's still a thing where a balance has to be found when it comes to that for a game. Like if the game is incoperating timing and all that, then shouldn't there be some kind of reward most times for players having that down, getting an open look with the right players, ect? If not, then they could have just changed the shooting to real player % across the board. And to make things clear, I DON'T wanna make all my open/wide open shots.

[T.B]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Remove the contested shot rating for created seems to be best option when looking at which community is making the most noice about it. NBA player modes need that rating.

There's an obvious divide of myplayer lovers vs NBA mode lovers.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

So because you don’t have the time it takes to become good, 2k should make it easier for you to compete with guys that are good and take the time to become good? That is essentially what you are saying.
Real basketball isn’t just something everyone is good at. NBA players spend their entire lives to become what they are. Some guy that spends an hour a week playing pick up games is never going to compete with someone that’s spent their entire life practicing and working to become the best player they can be.
Time spent playing the game isn’t the be all and end all of being good. Everyone here, that plays online, knows this is the case. We’ve all played against guys that spend their every waking moment playing the game and a lot of the time they are still no better than someone that just picked it up for the first time.
Asking for all of this artificial help seems to suggest a lot.
It all comes down to, I don’t have the time to necessary to become as good as those better than me and I want help so that I can be.
I’ll never be as good as some of the greats at any game for two main reasons.
1. I don’t have the time it takes to become that good, to learn all of the intricacies of the games mechanics.
And 2, maybe I’m just not as skilled.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Not even remotely close to what I was saying. I want to play realistic basketball, not video game basketball. Essentially, shot timing is just playing quick-time events. I want players to be rewarded for playing sound basketball, not knowing when to let go of a button.

And you also ignored every other thing I mentioned, like using custom rosters with different animations. That means that even if I spend 40 hours a week playing with one team, the second I go online, I have different animations to time and potentially different players altogether.

I'm sorry for wanting to play a realistic game of basketball where you're rewarded for knowing your team's strategy and your individual players' strengths and weaknesses over knowing how many milliseconds their shooting animations last. It sounds like you want NBA Elite 11's mechanics. That game favored stick control over everything else.

[awg811]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I can't fault people for lack of time. I'm in the same situation when it comes to the grind.

I can’t fault them for a lack of time either.
I work full time, have a wife and two daughters. I don’t have the time that a lot of these guys have to spend playing the game.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Not even remotely close to what I was saying. I want to play realistic basketball, not video game basketball. Essentially, shot timing is just playing quick-time events. I want players to be rewarded for playing sound basketball, not knowing when to let go of a button.

And you also ignored every other thing I mentioned, like using custom rosters with different animations. That means that even if I spend 40 hours a week playing with one team, the second I go online, I have different animations to time and potentially different players altogether.

I'm sorry for wanting to play a realistic game of basketball where you're rewarded for knowing your team's strategy and your individual players' strengths and weaknesses over knowing how many milliseconds their shooting animations last. It sounds like you want NBA Elite 11's mechanics. That game favored stick control over everything else.

You are contradicting yourself. You say you want realistic basketball and then ask for visual cues to tell you what to do and when.

Timing is critical in real basketball, in every aspect of the game.
And you’ve got me confused, I’m against everything artificial. I don’t like shot meters, boosts, badges, etc. I want as close to realistic as possible and adding in arrows, green releases, shot meters, badges, boosts, etc goes against realism.

Here’s a tip for you, just like real life, the ideal release point regardless of player or shot animation is at the top of the jump.
You don’t need anything other than that to know when to release your shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

You are contradicting yourself. You say you want realistic basketball and then ask for visual cues to tell you what to do and when.

Again, this is not even close to anything I said. I said if the game is going to force us to use release timing and penalize us for not knowing a player's shooting animation, then the meter should be visible so we know where we were wrong. I would prefer the shot success be ratings only.

Timing is critical in real basketball, in every aspect of the game.
And you’ve got me confused, I’m against everything artificial. I don’t like shot meters, boosts, badges, etc. I want as close to realistic as possible and adding in arrows, green releases, shot meters, badges, boosts, etc goes against realism.

Timing is critical, absolutely. But the quick time event shooting in video games is not at all a realistic representation of shooting a real basketball. There are far more aspects to a shot than the point of release relative to the jump. You don't want the visual cues, but you want the underlying formula to remain the same. That means you just don't want to see that you're using an unrealistic system.

Here’s a tip for you, just like real life, the ideal release point regardless of player or shot animation is at the top of the jump.
You don’t need anything other than that to know when to release your shot.

You're bordering on condescension at this point. I'm not an idiot. I know how to time shots in a video game. I'm saying that I shouldn't need to learn a player's release point on the fly, especially with other variables like input lag that I have no control over.

And yes, the ideal release point is at the peak of the jump. But that's not what 2k's controls use. 2k's "release" point is when the arm starts moving, not when the ball leaves the hand. So timing the button release at the top of the jump isn't even correct, because it adds a little extra time to the release. The correct timing would actually be just before the peak of the jump so that the ball leaves the shooter's hands at the top.

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Well after seeing those stats I stand corrected, but there's still a thing where a balance has to be found when it comes to that for a game. Like if the game is incoperating timing and all that, then shouldn't there be some kind of reward most times for players having that down, getting an open look with the right players, ect? If not, then they could have just changed the shooting to real player % across the board. And to make things clear, I DON'T wanna make all my open/wide open shots.

As a strictly offline gamer, I’m not sure if I’m using any 2k online specific terminology appropriately or if whatever I’m going to suggest already exist.

It’s probably impossible to have a balanced global setting that will cater to all parties, (you can’t be in two places at the same time), so why not simply set up various levels/lobbies of competition depending on how the settings are tuned. Keep the number of lobbies low so they’re actually meaningful, somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 total. If someone is truly that great, he or she can compete and win on any setting without complaint.

Spoiler

Someone can brag that they’re the definitive champ in one of the four major 2k lobbies (I made four hypothetical general categories below), but with everyone knowing there’s a total of four NBA 2k lobbies, you being the king of one (i.e. arcade-zero) could mean squat in the community; be top rated in all four 2k official lobbies, then come talk.

Four lobbies. Below are your four hypothetical major NBA 2K online events. Bragging rights and ego boosting if you dominate all four majors. Note: I’m simply using open vs contested shots as modifiers because that’s the current discussion. Then there’s that off-ball vs on-ball defense debate, but you can’t really regulate that with objective sliders, etc. But anyways, come up with a maximum of four 2k official lobbies that meets the online crowd’s wishes somehow...

(1) Sim-National: Simulation, open and contested shot percentage based on real NBA statistic (you’re making a maximum of 50% for wide open shots and that’s it). Depending on some factors the percentage could go up or down.

(2) Arcade zero ("The Sticks"): 100% makes on wide open shots, 0% makes on contested shots.

(3) Arcade 15: 85% makes on wide open shots, 15% makes on contested shots

(4) Arcade 30: 70% wide open shots, 30% makes on contested shots or whatever percentage is a representation of real life.

Spoiler mma weight class. There are different weight classes in fighting because weight makes a difference. There’s a difference in online play, so why group everyone together.

Spoiler

Weight class Upper weight limit
Strawweight 115 lb (52.2 kg)
Flyweight 125 lb (56.7 kg)
Bantamweight 135 lb (61.2 kg)
Featherweight 145 lb (65.8 kg)
Lightweight 155 lb (70.3 kg)
Super lightwt 165 lb (74.8 kg)
Welterweight 170 lb (77.1 kg)
Super welterwt 175 lb (79.4 kg)
Middleweight 185 lb (83.9 kg)
Super middlewt 195 lb (88.5 kg)
Light heavywt 205 lb (93.0 kg)
Cruiserweight 225 lb (102.1 kg)
Heavyweight 265 lb (120.2 kg)
Super heavyweight

[GudStuffzz]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's sim. Derozan's whole game is based around hitting contested mid-range jumpers. I think what 2k needs to do is add a varying contest system. Essentially, the lesser of a contest they do, the lower % of outcome it would have on the result of the jumpshot. I'm a fan of getting rid of the shot meter and just letting the shot be affected by the players ratings.

[WarMMA]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

It's sim. Derozan's whole game is based around hitting contested mid-range jumpers. I think what 2k needs to do is add a varying contest system. Essentially, the lesser of a contest they do, the lower % of outcome it would have on the result of the jumpshot. I'm a fan of getting rid of the shot meter and just letting the shot be affected by the players ratings.

Tbh they are already headed that way kinda. You've probably already seen the vid that's out and on here with GS vs LA. And if you watch that you'll notice they've modified shot contest to where the defender has to actively get a hand up in time, regardless of if they are right in front of the opponent. Like if they get a hand up too late and after the guys jumpshot has started, it'll register as only a lightly contested shot, even if they are right in front of their man. So that means good shooters that can hit certain contested shots at high % like Curry or Derozan can expose vague defense.

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I thought they already did have separate online versus offline slider sets.

Note: I personally don't play online; I remain offline and want the NBA experience.

(1) Just for the sake of clarification for the competition camp, do you guys/gals want 100% makes on open shots and always misses on contested shots?
(2) Do you guys use real NBA teams with 4 quarters with "normal" NBA final scores?
(3) If the answer to the first question is YES, then does that mean you guys/gals want to see scores of 100 - 0 (shooting percentage of 0%) if you are able to play complete lockdown all contested defense plus wide open shots? .... because that would be absolutely rewarding and an ego boost. I can completely shut down my opponent.
(4) Is that basically the "want" for the online competitive scene?
(5) If that is the "want" would it be appropriate to call that competitive scene simcade (simulation on the court player interactions but with arcade elements mixed in. 100% shot makes with open shots and 100% misses with all contested shots).

1) i think 70% ish on open shots with near perfect timing is what will help fix online shooting
2) no 5 min quarters in nba 2k online never end up with near realistic nba scores, you have to be blowing out a real newb to even score 100 points in 5 min quarters, and thats barring they didnt rage quit before ya could run up the score that much
3) honestly yes i think thats what the 2k comp community desires from 2k, if we smother you and you take a dumb shot, it should be like 10% odd of going in at best and no chance at a green no matter what bs badges they have like dead eye
4) the want is hard to quantify to one thing, but what the comp players want is skill back in the game, they all agree they dunno why but older 2ks took skill the new one does not, i think its the RNG shooting but many of them dont understand video game dev terminology so they have a hard time conveying what the issue is for them, but i do know a wide open good release that bricks is the most frustrating thing that happens to comp players
5) yes great way to put it, we dont mind arcadey fake animations as long as they can be countered!!! thats the key, comp players get aggravated when someone will do a cheese move that can not be countered

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Spoiler

You are contradicting yourself. You say you want realistic basketball and then ask for visual cues to tell you what to do and when.

Timing is critical in real basketball, in every aspect of the game.
And you’ve got me confused, I’m against everything artificial. I don’t like shot meters, boosts, badges, etc. I want as close to realistic as possible and adding in arrows, green releases, shot meters, badges, boosts, etc goes against realism.

Spoiler

Here’s a tip for you, just like real life, the ideal release point regardless of player or shot animation is at the top of the jump.
You don’t need anything other than that to know when to release your shot.
Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I'm going to play devil's advocate because I am quite interested in what your thought process (or those that religiously hate the shot meter) is exactly.

Do visual cues really take away from "realistic simulation basketball?"

(1) NBA 2k play art indicator: Calling plays is probably more simulation than anything. It's even more simulation than the discussion of having a shot meter. Would you consider having the play art appear on the floor directing player movement non-simulation?

The spoiler tag has more content. It includes visual indicators for baseball games, etc. and how they add to the simulation experience.

Spoiler

NBA 2k's play art has a dashed line telling you when to pass the ball, a solid dark navy arrow telling you where to move your ball handler, there's a target (or whatever it is) indicator telling you where to stand to initiate the play and where to move next, etc.

How many plays are there in the 2k playbook for each and every team? Should those that consider the shot meter a non-simulation component also frown upon the play art? Is each and every single simulation gamer suppose to remember all the plays without the help of the play art?

(2) Baseball games PCI: Baseball games has something sort of similar to the shot meter, referred to as the plate coverage indicator (PCI). It's a visual cue that can be turned off. It's suppose to represent the barrel of the baseball bat. In baseball, you're taught to watch the barrel of the bat hit the baseball. Keep your eye on the bat and ball. Without this visual indicator, you have absolutely no idea where the barrel of your bat is at, especially not with Pro Yakyuu Spirits.

Pro Yakyuu Spirits

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v-M8NNfs1f0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MLB the Show

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R5BdATTO8jQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(Videos in spoiler tag). The PCI for Pro Yakyuu Spirits is size of the barrel of the bat while the PCI for the Show is the size of an estimated area depending on the rating of the batter. Higher rated hitters for MLB the Show has a larger PCI. Pro Yakyuu Spirits hitting mechanics is entirely based on physics. You absolutely must square up the small PCI with the baseball to make contact. Off by an a few centimeters and you completely miss the swing. MLB the Show is much more forgiving given the size of the PCI plus the result is also ratings based (which is why some people feel it's a bit scripted).

Pro Yakyuu Spirits (PYS) has an ultra hardcore mode where the PCI can be turned off. In my opinion, if you are able hit in PYS with the PCI turned off, you are a legend in my books. I personally can't. And as you can probably guess, it's easier to hit in MLB the Show with the visual batter's cue turned off. Many "simulation" advocates for the Show turns off all visual indicators. But have the same people play Pro Yakyuu Spirits with the PCI turned off and they'll probably quit playing the game because they will not be able to hit the ball at all; the PCI in PYS is simply too realistic (it's the size of the barrel of the bat).

(3) MLB 2k batter's eye (unfortunately, the game is no longer made). This batter's eye is suppose to put you in the shoes of the actual MLB player. Great baseball players have an eye for the ball; they can see exactly what's coming. Higher rated players in MLB2k12 would have more frequent batter's eye visual cue show up giving them an advantage. The blue line is suppose to represent the direction/location of the pitch.

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SoxeoGz0UP8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In other words, visual cues are there to put you in the shoes of the actual baseball or basketball player. One could argue that without these visual cues, you're one man or woman holding controller playing the "same exact way" with every single player watching their release point. Yes, ratings obviously matter and they partially determine the outcome.

But how do you simulate over 300 plus different players? I could argue that the shot meter is more simulation than not. The shot meter's green release is an indicator to the gamer that on this one shot, you absolutely nailed it with a very high percentage for the shot to go in (unfortunately, it's a guaranteed make in current NBA2k. In a perfect replicated NBA world, green release should probably only mean your release was near perfect but the ball going in is not guaranteed).

Nick Young's real life "green release"

Spoiler

Steph Curry to Klay Thompson to Kevin Knox to Porzingis knows their shot release like the back of their hand. Newbies without the luxury of endless hours on the sticks to practice the worst to the best players in the NBA won't.

Do you want to face someone online who is utterly terrible with digital Steph Curry and continues to miss shot after shot (with no shot meter and online lag, etc), or a solid representation of Steph Curry where he's greening his release. The challenge should be to face a "true representation" of Steph Curry in the virtual online world so you're getting a "realistic" Steph and the Golden State Warriors experience.


In summation: Visual cues don't take away from a simulation experience. If anything it makes the experience even more simulation especially in the case with baseball games. The same can be said about basketball games (i.e. floor play art, shot meter, what about icon passing? (icons on top of the player's head), etc.). What about the player indicator, can we even turned that indicator off so you don't know who you're controlling? That by definition is also a visual cue.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'm going to play devil's advocate because I am quite interested in what your thought process (or those that religiously hate the shot meter) is exactly.

Do visual cues really take away from "realistic simulation basketball?"

(1) NBA 2k play art indicator: Calling plays is probably more simulation than anything. It's even more simulation than the discussion of having a shot meter. Would you consider having the play art appear on the floor directing player movement non-simulation?

The spoiler tag has more content. It includes visual indicators for baseball games, etc. and how they add to the simulation experience.

Spoiler

NBA 2k's play art has a dashed line telling you when to pass the ball, a solid dark navy arrow telling you where to move your ball handler, there's a target (or whatever it is) indicator telling you where to stand to initiate the play and where to move next, etc.

How many plays are there in the 2k playbook for each and every team? Should those that consider the shot meter a non-simulation component also frown upon the play art? Is each and every single simulation gamer suppose to remember all the plays without the help of the play art?

(2) Baseball games PCI: Baseball games has something sort of similar to the shot meter, referred to as the plate coverage indicator (PCI). It's a visual cue that can be turned off. It's suppose to represent the barrel of the baseball bat. In baseball, you're taught to watch the barrel of the bat hit the baseball. Keep your eye on the bat and ball. Without this visual indicator, you have absolutely no idea where the barrel of your bat is at, especially not with Pro Yakyuu Spirits.

Pro Yakyuu Spirits

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v-M8NNfs1f0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MLB the Show

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R5BdATTO8jQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(Videos in spoiler tag). The PCI for Pro Yakyuu Spirits is size of the barrel of the bat while the PCI for the Show is the size of an estimated area depending on the rating of the batter. Higher rated hitters for MLB the Show has a larger PCI. Pro Yakyuu Spirits hitting mechanics is entirely based on physics. You absolutely must square up the small PCI with the baseball to make contact. Off by an a few centimeters and you completely miss the swing. MLB the Show is much more forgiving given the size of the PCI plus the result is also ratings based (which is why some people feel it's a bit scripted).

Pro Yakyuu Spirits (PYS) has an ultra hardcore mode where the PCI can be turned off. In my opinion, if you are able hit in PYS with the PCI turned off, you are a legend in my books. I personally can't. And as you can probably guess, it's easier to hit in MLB the Show with the visual batter's cue turned off. Many "simulation" advocates for the Show turns off all visual indicators. But have the same people play Pro Yakyuu Spirits with the PCI turned off and they'll probably quit playing the game because they will not be able to hit the ball at all; the PCI in PYS is simply too realistic (it's the size of the barrel of the bat).

(3) MLB 2k batter's eye (unfortunately, the game is no longer made). This batter's eye is suppose to put you in the shoes of the actual MLB player. Great baseball players have an eye for the ball; they can see exactly what's coming. Higher rated players in MLB2k12 would have more frequent batter's eye visual cue show up giving them an advantage. The blue line is suppose to represent the direction/location of the pitch.

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SoxeoGz0UP8" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

In other words, visual cues are there to put you in the shoes of the actual baseball or basketball player. One could argue that without these visual cues, you're one man or woman holding controller playing the "same exact way" with every single player watching their release point. Yes, ratings obviously matter and they partially determine the outcome.

But how do you simulate over 300 plus different players? I could argue that the shot meter is more simulation than not. The shot meter's green release is an indicator to the gamer that on this one shot, you absolutely nailed it with a very high percentage for the shot to go in (unfortunately, it's a guaranteed make in current NBA2k. In a perfect replicated NBA world, green release should probably only mean your release was near perfect but the ball going in is not guaranteed).

Nick Young's real life "green release"

Spoiler

Steph Curry to Klay Thompson to Kevin Knox to Porzingis knows their shot release like the back of their hand. Newbies without the luxury of endless hours on the sticks to practice the worst to the best players in the NBA won't.

Do you want to face someone online who is utterly terrible with digital Steph Curry and continues to miss shot after shot (with no shot meter and online lag, etc), or a solid representation of Steph Curry where he's greening his release. The challenge should be to face a "true representation" of Steph Curry in the virtual online world so you're getting a "realistic" Steph and the Golden State Warriors experience.


In summation: Visual cues don't take away from a simulation experience. If anything it makes the experience even more simulation especially in the case with baseball games. The same can be said about basketball games (i.e. floor play art, shot meter, what about icon passing? (icons on top of the player's head), etc.). What about the player indicator, can we even turned that indicator off so you don't know who you're controlling? That by definition is also a visual cue.

This is exactly my thought process. Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[QUOTE=strawberryshortcake;2049494887]I'm going to play devil's advocate because I am quite interested in what your thought process (or those that religiously hate the shot meter) is exactly. [/QOUTE]

First off, I’m fine with whatever one wants to do or how they want to play their game. If offline you want to set CPU attributes to zero and HUM to 100 do your thing.

Online h2h I’m against any added visuals that are not present in real life basketball.
I am not against play calling because that is a part of the game, but I am against visuals that let you know when and where to pass to.

Ideally, for me, the game would be 100% sim and nothing more. By 100% sim and ideally, I mean every little detail from play on the court to sounds in the stands.
For me, I would like it to represent what it feels like to be on the floor in game 7 playing in front of a hostile crowd. Total immersion!
In my opinion, all of these added visuals, boosts, badges, and whatever are, let’s face it, there to help people that need help to compete. Offline or in practice, have all the visual help you want, but in an online h2h competition, there should be none of those things.
In my opinion, it only helps the weaker opponent.
Since the shot meter was introduced, I have never used it. And I’ve never used boosts, park cards, Gatorade, or any of the other artificial help that 2k puts in.
That is, until this year when without boosts you are at a huge disadvantage!

So, I’ll ask you the same question for clarifications sake.

How can someone say they want a sim game, but think that things like boosts, badges, shot meters, or whatever are sim?

Ill never understand when someone says that you can’t get the feel of being in rhythm, the feel of the shot, anticipate where the rebound will likely come off, etc in the game.
I’ll never understand it because it’s not true.

*EDIT The quote didn’t work and I’m too lazy to fix it! [emoji1]

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[bcruise]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'm going to play devil's advocate because I am quite interested in what your thought process (or those that religiously hate the shot meter) is exactly.

Do visual cues really take away from "realistic simulation basketball?"

(1) NBA 2k play art indicator: Calling plays is probably more simulation than anything. It's even more simulation than the discussion of having a shot meter. Would you consider having the play art appear on the floor directing player movement non-simulation?

The spoiler tag has more content. It includes visual indicators for baseball games, etc. and how they add to the simulation experience.

Spoiler

NBA 2k's play art has a dashed line telling you when to pass the ball, a solid dark navy arrow telling you where to move your ball handler, there's a target (or whatever it is) indicator telling you where to stand to initiate the play and where to move next, etc.

How many plays are there in the 2k playbook for each and every team? Should those that consider the shot meter a non-simulation component also frown upon the play art? Is each and every single simulation gamer suppose to remember all the plays without the help of the play art?

(2) Baseball games PCI: Baseball games has something sort of similar to the shot meter, referred to as the plate coverage indicator (PCI). It's a visual cue that can be turned off. It's suppose to represent the barrel of the baseball bat. In baseball, you're taught to watch the barrel of the bat hit the baseball. Keep your eye on the bat and ball. Without this visual indicator, you have absolutely no idea where the barrel of your bat is at, especially not with Pro Yakyuu Spirits.

Pro Yakyuu Spirits

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/v-M8NNfs1f0" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

MLB the Show

Spoiler

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/R5BdATTO8jQ" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>

(Videos in spoiler tag). The PCI for Pro Yakyuu Spirits is size of the barrel of the bat while the PCI for the Show is the size of an estimated area depending on the rating of the batter. Higher rated hitters for MLB the Show has a larger PCI. Pro Yakyuu Spirits hitting mechanics is entirely based on physics. You absolutely must square up the small PCI with the baseball to make contact. Off by an a few centimeters and you completely miss the swing. MLB the Show is much more forgiving given the size of the PCI plus the result is also ratings based (which is why some people feel it's a bit scripted).

Pro Yakyuu Spirits (PYS) has an ultra hardcore mode where the PCI can be turned off. In my opinion, if you are able hit in PYS with the PCI turned off, you are a legend in my books. I personally can't. And as you can probably guess, it's easier to hit in MLB the Show with the visual batter's cue turned off. Many "simulation" advocates for the Show turns off all visual indicators. But have the same people play Pro Yakyuu Spirits with the PCI turned off and they'll probably quit playing the game because they will not be able to hit the ball at all; the PCI in PYS is simply too realistic (it's the size of the barrel of the bat).

(3) MLB 2k batter's eye (unfortunately, the game is no longer made). This batter's eye is suppose to put you in the shoes of the actual MLB player. Great baseball players have an eye for the ball; they can see exactly what's coming. Higher rated players in MLB2k12 would have more frequent batter's eye visual cue show up giving them an advantage. The blue line is suppose to represent the direction/location of the pitch.

Spoiler

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In other words, visual cues are there to put you in the shoes of the actual baseball or basketball player. One could argue that without these visual cues, you're one man or woman holding controller playing the "same exact way" with every single player watching their release point. Yes, ratings obviously matter and they partially determine the outcome.

But how do you simulate over 300 plus different players? I could argue that the shot meter is more simulation than not. The shot meter's green release is an indicator to the gamer that on this one shot, you absolutely nailed it with a very high percentage for the shot to go in (unfortunately, it's a guaranteed make in current NBA2k. In a perfect replicated NBA world, green release should probably only mean your release was near perfect but the ball going in is not guaranteed).

Nick Young's real life "green release"

Spoiler

Steph Curry to Klay Thompson to Kevin Knox to Porzingis knows their shot release like the back of their hand. Newbies without the luxury of endless hours on the sticks to practice the worst to the best players in the NBA won't.

Do you want to face someone online who is utterly terrible with digital Steph Curry and continues to miss shot after shot (with no shot meter and online lag, etc), or a solid representation of Steph Curry where he's greening his release. The challenge should be to face a "true representation" of Steph Curry in the virtual online world so you're getting a "realistic" Steph and the Golden State Warriors experience.


In summation: Visual cues don't take away from a simulation experience. If anything it makes the experience even more simulation especially in the case with baseball games. The same can be said about basketball games (i.e. floor play art, shot meter, what about icon passing? (icons on top of the player's head), etc.). What about the player indicator, can we even turned that indicator off so you don't know who you're controlling? That by definition is also a visual cue.

Fantastic post with a lot of great examples. I agree that visual aids aren't inherently "unsim", and that, when used in the right way they can actually make a game MORE sim for someone who may not be familiar with all of the nuances of the sport. For the 2K play art example, I'd be completely lost without PlayVision - I could see a bunch of players moving and setting picks for each other when a play is called, but none of that matters if I don't know where to take the ball to carry out the play. Simply put...I cannot play 2K in a sim way without PlayVision.

I know, I know, "Practice and get better". Well, the issue with that is that it's a video game, I play a lot of different games other than this one, and my main purpose with all of them is ultimately to have fun. Trying to learn every designed play at a team's disposal without the play art is more comparable to work, and work isn't why I play video games. The game's doing the work for me so I can have fun - why shouldn't I let it? I'm sure learning every play in a playbook is fun for some people - it just isn't for me.

There are definitely times when visual aids can get overbearing - take Madden with it showing you exactly what special move you're supposed to perform to beat a defender on its lower levels. I don't need THAT much help (fortunately I play on All-Pro or All-Madden so it isn't an issue there). But on the whole I don't really understand why there's such a stigma against them amongst the "sim" crowd. If they help people like me play the game in a more realistic way, and have more fun in the process, what's the harm?

[El_Poopador]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

So, I’ll ask you the same question for clarifications sake.

How can someone say they want a sim game, but think that things like boosts, badges, shot meters, or whatever are sim?

No one is arguing for boosts. Badges were supposed to help differentiate players, but ended up just being glorified boosts. We haven’t said they’re there to be realistic.

Shot meters are not realistic, but neither is shot success being dependent on a quick time event (QTE). The meter is just feedback on whether or not you were successful in that particular execution of said QTE.

Ill never understand when someone says that you can’t get the feel of being in rhythm, the feel of the shot, anticipate where the rebound will likely come off, etc in the game.
I’ll never understand it because it’s not true.

Ok, let me ask you this:

How exactly do you feel a player’s rhythm through a controller? You are lying to yourself if you say you can. You may observe that they made a few consecutive shots, but you’re not in their shoes; you can’t actually feel what they’re feeling. And sometimes guys come out feeling their shot. You have no way of knowing that without a visual cue.

When you play a game, how is a player like DeAndre Jordan differentiated on the glass from someone like Brook Lopez? In real life, DeAndre is much better at anticipating how the ball is going to bounce and getting into position. How is that intangible skill represented in-game? It’s not. You can be just as successful with Brook Lopez. Having the rebound indicator that they’re adding is to help differentiate great rebounders from the rest; it’s meant really give you the feeling that the player you’re controlling is better at rebounding than everyone else.

Again, you say you want 100% sim, but you want shooting to be based on timing an animation instead of the ratings of the player you’re taking the shot with and the quality of the shot. You want rebounds to be dictated strictly by the user behind the controller instead of the player being controlled. That’s contradictory. You either want pure realism or you want video game elements.