Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I'm going to play devil's advocate because I am quite interested in what your thought process (or those that religiously hate the shot meter) is exactly.

Spoiler

First off, I’m fine with whatever one wants to do or how they want to play their game. If offline you want to set CPU attributes to zero and HUM to 100 do your thing.

Online h2h I’m against any added visuals that are not present in real life basketball.
I am not against play calling because that is a part of the game, but I am against visuals that let you know when and where to pass to.

Ideally, for me, the game would be 100% sim and nothing more. By 100% sim and ideally, I mean every little detail from play on the court to sounds in the stands.
For me, I would like it to represent what it feels like to be on the floor in game 7 playing in front of a hostile crowd. Total immersion!
In my opinion, all of these added visuals, boosts, badges, and whatever are, let’s face it, there to help people that need help to compete.

Spoiler

Offline or in practice, have all the visual help you want, but in an online h2h competition, there should be none of those things.
In my opinion, it only helps the weaker opponent.
Since the shot meter was introduced, I have never used it. And I’ve never used boosts, park cards, Gatorade, or any of the other artificial help that 2k puts in.
That is, until this year when without boosts you are at a huge disadvantage!

So, I’ll ask you the same question for clarifications sake.

How can someone say they want a sim game, but think that things like boosts, badges, shot meters, or whatever are sim?

Ill never understand when someone says that you can’t get the feel of being in rhythm, the feel of the shot, anticipate where the rebound will likely come off, etc in the game.
I’ll never understand it because it’s not true.

*EDIT The quote didn’t work and I’m too lazy to fix it! [emoji1]

Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

For the quote thingy, the last [ QOUTE ], you had O before the letter U Hopefully I fixed it properly.

Anyways, meat and potatoes. I'm only bolding parts of my response so it's easier to digest the entire wall of text. That's pretty much it.

Did you see my baseball examples?. Because that is essentially the most crucial part to this whole discussion. If you don't take a moment to factor that in, then the discussion about 'shot meters, feeling in rhythm, badges, floor play art (or art vision; thanks to bcrusie for given me the proper term)' isn't going to jive.

A quick response to the statement, it helps the weaker opponent. But isn't having a simulation experience the want? If the weaker opponent uses Steph Curry like trash and goes 1/15 from 3 point because he/she has the shot meter turned off, that's no longer simulation. That's completely the opposite of simulation.

Secondly, why even have visual scoreboard bug. If you want a true experience, 2k needs to remove the score bug and the competitor can only know the score if he/she pushes up one of the analog stick (or a combination or buttons) so the camera shifts towards the jumbotron of where the actual score is kept tracked within all arenas. Or better, yet keep track of the score in his/her head until the completion of the game.

I think there's a disconnect between the crowd that wants all visual aids off and those that selectively uses them.

You have to look at these visual aids as inherent characteristics of the digital character even though it's definitely not something visible on screen nor in the arena for anyone to see. The scoreboard would be a visual aid. Spike Lee sitting courtside doesn't see a floating 3 point badge near Curry's head, but Spike knows of Curry's court attributes just like everyone else in the arena. Having a virtual digital badge allows the user (essentially a video game coach with a controller in hand) to keep track of the inherent characteristics of his/her team. It doesn't make the coach better, it just allows him/her to keep track. Note: I don't care about badges, so I'm not really at liberty to say if they actually do help or hurt the character.

Re-read my previous post about my baseball examples, then read the following. The shot meter and feel of the shot rhythm is an inherent property of the digital character Steph Curry. Unless you have a brain, heart, body and soul transplant of Steph Curry and each and every single IRL basketball player that you want to emulate in 2k NBA, you're not going to truly get that person's inherent experience.

The shot meter is like the PCI in baseball games. It allows you to "simulate" the exact moment of Steph Curry's shot release or Aaron Judge's plate coverage vision (New York Yankee baseball star). You're putting yourself in the shoes of that digital character. Playing it through the eyes/body awareness/mental capacity/inherent knowledge of the player himself immediately on the spot. You may say, yes that's why you should turn them off in a video game. But that's where the disconnect is. Turning off these visual aids (especially the shot meter) means the user takes himself out of Curry's 'head/self.' Leaving them on allows the user to play in a realistic manner that "simulates" what it's like to be Steph Curry. If the shot meter helps to more closely approximate Steph Curry's shooting success, then that user is in reality "simulating" the Steph Curry basketball experience. If you remove the shot meter and the user completely tanks, then that user isn't "simulating" the Steph Curry experience anymore.

Read Bcruise post, and take important note of one statement, "But on the whole I don't really understand why there's such a stigma against them amongst the "sim" crowd. If they help people like me play the game in a more realistic way,"

Here's how I look at play calling. Calling plays is simulation; using indicators is simulation. What's not hardcore simulation would be to move your character to the wrong spot, or pass it to the wrong person because you had no clue what you were suppose to do. I personally would sometimes call a play just as a decoy when my real play would simply be to send my corner three guy on a cutter to the paint.

Fantastic post with a lot of great examples. I agree that visual aids aren't inherently "unsim", and that, when used in the right way they can actually make a game MORE sim for someone who may not be familiar with all of the nuances of the sport. For the 2K play art example, I'd be completely lost without PlayVision - I could see a bunch of players moving and setting picks for each other when a play is called, but none of that matters if I don't know where to take the ball to carry out the play. Simply put...I cannot play 2K in a sim way without PlayVision.

Spoiler

I know, I know, "Practice and get better". Well, the issue with that is that it's a video game, I play a lot of different games other than this one, and my main purpose with all of them is ultimately to have fun. Trying to learn every designed play at a team's disposal without the play art is more comparable to work, and work isn't why I play video games. The game's doing the work for me so I can have fun - why shouldn't I let it? I'm sure learning every play in a playbook is fun for some people - it just isn't for me.

There are definitely times when visual aids can get overbearing - take Madden with it showing you exactly what special move you're supposed to perform to beat a defender on its lower levels. I don't need THAT much help (fortunately I play on All-Pro or All-Madden so it isn't an issue there).

But on the whole I don't really understand why there's such a stigma against them amongst the "sim" crowd. If they help people like me play the game in a more realistic way, and have more fun in the process, what's the harm?

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

No one is arguing for boosts. Badges were supposed to help differentiate players, but ended up just being glorified boosts. We haven’t said they’re there to be realistic.

Shot meters are not realistic, but neither is shot success being dependent on a quick time event (QTE). The meter is just feedback on whether or not you were successful in that particular execution of said QTE.




Ok, let me ask you this:

How exactly do you feel a player’s rhythm through a controller? You are lying to yourself if you say you can. You may observe that they made a few consecutive shots, but you’re not in their shoes; you can’t actually feel what they’re feeling. And sometimes guys come out feeling their shot. You have no way of knowing that without a visual cue.

When you play a game, how is a player like DeAndre Jordan differentiated on the glass from someone like Brook Lopez? In real life, DeAndre is much better at anticipating how the ball is going to bounce and getting into position. How is that intangible skill represented in-game? It’s not. You can be just as successful with Brook Lopez. Having the rebound indicator that they’re adding is to help differentiate great rebounders from the rest; it’s meant really give you the feeling that the player you’re controlling is better at rebounding than everyone else.

Again, you say you want 100% sim, but you want shooting to be based on timing an animation instead of the ratings of the player you’re taking the shot with and the quality of the shot. You want rebounds to be dictated strictly by the user behind the controller instead of the player being controlled. That’s contradictory. You either want pure realism or you want video game elements.

Again, you’ve got me confused.

It’s seems that you play one mode, where I play all of them.

I can and I do, know when I’m in a rhythm. I can and I do anticipate how the ball will come off the rim. If you can or not isn’t my problem nor my concern.

MyPlayer is a 6’11’ 220 lbs two way post scorer. I have a 76 boxout, 77 off/def rebound, and a 61 open 3. I consistently out rebound 7’3’’ 340 pound glass cleaners because I get myself into the correct position and box out. Once I feel I’m in a rhythm, I’ll increase my range to 3pt range if the offense calls for it and hit them at a 40 to 50% clip taking 1 to 3 a game.
Now, just to clarify, the rebounding part is how it should be, position, and timing (skill) means more than 99 rebounding stats. In my opinion if someone sucks at rebounding, positioning, anticipation, and timing they shouldn’t get rebounds just because to have crazy high attributes.
3pt shooting is a different story. I don’t believe any non shooting arch should be hitting 50% of their 3’s, I don’t really feel like any arch should be shooting at the high a number, but that’s a different conversation. However, I do feel like if I’m in a rhythm and I’m taking smart shots within the flow of the game, I should be able to knock them down at a 30 to 35% rate. Again, if they are smart open shots within the flow of the game.

As far as a CPU DeAndre Jordan vs CPU Brook Lopez, you start with ratings, tendencies, and AI IQ. That’s on 2k not me.
But giving a CPU an arrow telling them where they should be would be of no help, that only helps the lower IQ/skilled human player.
If you player lock on to Jordan and are skilled, you will differentiate him on your own with your skill and IQ.

As far as how I want shooting, you obviously have no idea because I’ve never once said that I want it to be based on timing vs openness or player ratings. Ideally it would be a combination of all those things.

I want the game to be skill/IQ based not let’s make a bum a god based. Again, this is strictly h2h human controlled players. 2k is responsible for upping the level of CPU IQ and tendencies.
Everything you keep saying is that you want help so that you can feel like your good. And that’s fine offline, but h2h you should be what you are, whatever that is.


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[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Again, you’ve got me confused.

It’s seems that you play one mode, were I play all of them.

I can and I do, know when I’m in a rhythm. I can and I do anticipate how the ball will come off the rim. If you can or not isn’t my problem nor my concern.

That's not what I asked. I asked how is it any different when controlling an elite rebounder vs an average one? That is my point. When you simply leave it up to the user, every player will feel the same in some aspects, such as rebounding. There needs to be something that sets players apart from one another. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.

MyPlayer is a 6’11’ 220 lbs two way post scorer. I have a 76 boxout, 77 off/def rebound, and a 61 open 3. I consistently out rebound 7’3’’ 340 pound glass cleaners because I get myself into the correct position and box out. Once I feel I’m in a rhythm, I’ll increase my range to 3pt range if the offense calls for it and hit them at a 40 to 50% clip.
Now, just to clarify, the rebounding part is how it should be, position, and timing (skill) means more than 99 rebounding stats. In my opinion if someone sucks at rebounding, positioning, anticipation, and timing they shouldn’t get rebounds just because to have crazy high attributes.

But what changes with your player if you increase their rebounding attributes? You already are able to get rebounds, so how does a 6'11", 220lbs post scorer with mid-70s rebounding attributes feel different than a 7'3" 340lb glass cleaner in the hands of the same player? What sets them apart on the glass when the same user is controlling both builds? You still haven't answered that question.

3pt shooting is a different story. I don’t believe any non shooting arch should be hitting 50% of their 3’s, I don’t really feel like any arch should be shooting at the high a number, but that’s a different conversation. However, I do feel like if I’m in a rhythm and I’m taking smart shots within the flow of the game, I should be able to knock them down at a 30 to 35% rate. Again, if they are smart open shots within the flow of the game.

As far as how I want shooting, you obviously have no idea because I’ve never once said that I want it to be based on timing vs openness or player ratings. Ideally it would be a combination of all those things.

Having it be a combination means that you want the animation QTE to be a factor. That means that someone who is able to get open looks by using sound basketball strategies and playing the strengths of their players can be penalized if they don't time the animation correctly. You'd rather have the video game aspect of the QTE determine shot success over playing realistic basketball.

As far as a CPU DeAndre Jordan vs CPU Brook Lopez, you start with ratings, tendencies, and AI IQ. That’s on 2k not me.
But giving a CPU an arrow telling them where they should be would be of no help, that only helps the lower IQ human player.
If you player lock on to Jordan and are skilled, you will differentiate him on your own with your skill and IQ.

Again, if the same user is controlling both, how are they any different? Jordan is hands down a better rebounder in real life, but how does that come through on the virtual hardwood?

I want the game to be skill/IQ based not let’s make a bum a god based. Again, this is strictly h2h human controlled players. 2k is responsible for upping the level of CPU IQ and tendencies.
Everything you keep saying is that you want help so that you can feel like your good. And that’s fine offline, but h2h you should be what you are, whatever that is.

No one said we want bums to be god-like. On the contrary, we want things like the side to side cheese and badged up sharps to be penalized for not getting good looks, rather than rewarded for mastering their selected animations. We want realistic NBA offenses and defense to be rewarded, and poor shot selection and cheese to be penalized.

Things like that aren't an issue offline because the CPU has no shot meter, and I play with ratings only shooting. But online, I can run plays all day and get open looks, miss because I mistime some animations, only to have my opponent run and gun with a slow, half-court team like the Spurs and shoot 50%+ because they can time their animations better.

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

For the quote thingy, the last [ QOUTE ], you had O before the letter U Hopefully I fixed it properly.

Anyways, meat and potatoes. I'm only bolding parts of my response so it's easier to digest the entire wall of text. That's pretty much it.

Did you see my baseball examples?. Because that is essentially the most crucial part to this whole discussion. If you don't take a moment to factor that in, then the discussion about 'shot meters, feeling in rhythm, badges, floor play art (or art vision; thanks to bcrusie for given me the proper term)' isn't going to jive.

A quick response to the statement, it helps the weaker opponent. But isn't having a simulation experience the want? If the weaker opponent uses Steph Curry like trash and goes 1/15 from 3 point because he/she has the shot meter turned off, that's no longer simulation. That's completely the opposite of simulation.

Secondly, why even have visual scoreboard bug. If you want a true experience, 2k needs to remove the score bug and the competitor can only know the score if he/she pushes up one of the analog stick (or a combination or buttons) so the camera shifts towards the jumbotron of where the actual score is kept tracked within all arenas. Or better, yet keep track of the score in his/her head until the completion of the game.

I think there's a disconnect between the crowd that wants all visual aids off and those that selectively uses them.

You have to look at these visual aids as inherent characteristics of the digital character even though it's definitely not something visible on screen nor in the arena for anyone to see. The scoreboard would be a visual aid. Spike Lee sitting courtside doesn't see a floating 3 point badge near Curry's head, but Spike knows of Curry's court attributes just like everyone else in the arena. Having a virtual digital badge allows the user (essentially a video game coach with a controller in hand) to keep track of the inherent characteristics of his/her team. It doesn't make the coach better, it just allows him/her to keep track. Note: I don't care about badges, so I'm not really at liberty to say if they actually do help or hurt the character.

Re-read my previous post about my baseball examples, then read the following. The shot meter and feel of the shot rhythm is an inherent property of the digital character Steph Curry. Unless you have a brain, heart, body and soul transplant of Steph Curry and each and every single IRL basketball player that you want to emulate in 2k NBA, you're not going to truly get that person's inherent experience.

The shot meter is like the PCI in baseball games. It allows you to "simulate" the exact moment of Steph Curry's shot release or Aaron Judge's plate coverage vision (New York Yankee baseball star). You're putting yourself in the shoes of that digital character. Playing it through the eyes/body awareness/mental capacity/inherent knowledge of the player himself immediately on the spot. You may say, yes that's why you should turn them off in a video game. But that's where the disconnect is. Turning off these visual aids (especially the shot meter) means the user takes himself out of Curry's 'head/self.' Leaving them on allows the user to play in a realistic manner that "simulates" what it's like to be Steph Curry. If the shot meter helps to more closely approximate Steph Curry's shooting success, then that user is in reality "simulating" the Steph Curry basketball experience. If you remove the shot meter and the user completely tanks, then that user isn't "simulating" the Steph Curry experience anymore.

Read Bcruise post, and take important note of one statement, "But on the whole I don't really understand why there's such a stigma against them amongst the "sim" crowd. If they help people like me play the game in a more realistic way,"

Here's how I look at play calling. Calling plays is simulation; using indicators is simulation. What's not hardcore simulation would be to move your character to the wrong spot, or pass it to the wrong person because you had no clue what you were suppose to do. I personally would sometimes call a play just as a decoy when my real play would simply be to send my corner three guy on a cutter to the paint.

First, [emoji23] rookie mistake, I accidentally deleted the “[/QUOTE]” and misspelled it. Haha

I read your post, but I don’t play baseball games so it doesn’t really help me to understand your point when I don’t understand what you’re talking about in respect to that game, but I’ll go back and re-read it to see if I can make the connection.

Sim is the goal, to me, but I don’t want sim at the cost of skill. Meaning I don’t want someone that’s going to go 1/15 with any player to suddenly be good just because they are using Curry. If someone is 1/15 with anyone, they are that because they are no good and that’s how it should be.

I am not opposed to your idea about the scoreboard, it’s a decent idea that would add immersion.

I don’t really understand the Curry floating 3 icon. If you’re the coach of the team you should know your players strengths and weakness. If someone is playing this game and doesn’t know what Steph Curry is good at, I’m not sure why you feel that they should somehow be as good as someone that does when they obviously don’t know basketball as well as their opponent. I guess I don’t know why everyone in the arena would know what Curry is good at, but the person controlling him wouldn’t.

Again, people shouldn’t be good in h2h just because the player they are using has high ratings. If they don’t know basketball or how to play it, it is what it is if they decide to play h2h.
I’m strictly talking h2h, whatever someone does offline is of no concern to me.

It’s seems we are coming from two different ideologies when talking about “sim”.
You want to be sim Curry and I want sim basketball. You want to play a sim basketball video game and I want to play sim basketball. I’m not trying to be Curry, I’m trying to be me.
Nothing wrong with that and no reason that both of us can’t have what we’re looking for.



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[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Everything you keep saying is that you want help so that you can feel like your good. And that’s fine offline, but h2h you should be what you are, whatever that is.


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I really LOVE this statement. You should be what you are in online competition. I mainly play PNO.

Admittedly, they got me on the playart, because I do use that when calling plays. Here's the thing. I use them, because it makes it easier for me to understand what's developing on the floor. It's easier for me to follow the diagrams then to learn the plays. The same way it's easier for someone to play QTE with the shot meter then to learn the shooting animations of their players. In the My Player mode and IMHO, there shouldn't be one. They only have one character to learn. However, running plays don't guarantee a score like getting an excellent release do despite what the defense does. Taking away playart should give the person who took the time to learn the plays an advantage, and I would be all for that for the spirit of competition.

As for this whole being in the players' rhythm and mind...a visual cue doesn't bring you any closer to being Curry than not having one. There's basically three speeds to shooting animations...slow, medium, quick. Same formula that I've been using since 2K4. I've been mostly successful except for the year of broken jumpers. I don't understand how people can't adjust their shots on the fly when they're not hitting their shots. If it was up to me, there a casual (as it's currently is) and hardcore more where they remove badges, meters, and playart.

I don't play those other sports in IRL or videogame, so I can't speak on those visual cues. I have seen the cues in the Madden, and I thought those was unnecessary.

[ksuttonjr76]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

But online, I can run plays all day and get open looks, miss because I mistime some animations, only to have my opponent run and gun with a slow, half-court team like the Spurs and shoot 50%+ because they can time their animations better.

Ummmm, yeah. That's exactly how it's supposed to be. I don't think you can run and gun the Spurs, because I don't think they got the personnel to do it though.

[4xChamp]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

I don’t get the people that say that you can’t “feel” when you’ve released a good shot or can’t “feel” when you’re in a rhythm.
Maybe “you” can’t and that’s why “you” are crying for help.
The shot meter, boosts, and badges etc cater to less skilled lower basketball IQ players.
This is what makes people ask for a skills gap because all of those things take the skills gap away!

i bet ya never played basketball before, feeling like a shot is good in real life doesnt have any visual cues either, its just a feeling of confidence that was so high ya felt there was no way it was gonna miss, and also about feeling yourself into a rhythm, umm if i hit 2 or 3 3's in a row in real life or in 2k im feeling my self, im gonna throw up a heat check and find out just how hot i am, this "feel" ya never felt is a real thing, and it really happens to great players in 2k and in real life

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

That's not what I asked. I asked how is it any different when controlling an elite rebounder vs an average one? That is my point. When you simply leave it up to the user, every player will feel the same in some aspects, such as rebounding. There needs to be something that sets players apart from one another. I don't know why you can't comprehend that.







But what changes with your player if you increase their rebounding attributes? You already are able to get rebounds, so how does a 6'11", 220lbs post scorer with mid-70s rebounding attributes feel different than a 7'3" 340lb glass cleaner in the hands of the same player? What sets them apart on the glass when the same user is controlling both builds? You still haven't answered that question.











Having it be a combination means that you want the animation QTE to be a factor. That means that someone who is able to get open looks by using sound basketball strategies and playing the strengths of their players can be penalized if they don't time the animation correctly. You'd rather have the video game aspect of the QTE determine shot success over playing realistic basketball.







Again, if the same user is controlling both, how are they any different? Jordan is hands down a better rebounder in real life, but how does that come through on the virtual hardwood?







No one said we want bums to be god-like. On the contrary, we want things like the side to side cheese and badged up sharps to be penalized for not getting good looks, rather than rewarded for mastering their selected animations. We want realistic NBA offenses and defense to be rewarded, and poor shot selection and cheese to be penalized.



Things like that aren't an issue offline because the CPU has no shot meter, and I play with ratings only shooting. But online, I can run plays all day and get open looks, miss because I mistime some animations, only to have my opponent run and gun with a slow, half-court team like the Spurs and shoot 50%+ because they can time their animations better.

You and I can not have a conversation. There’s some disconnect here. One of us isn’t explaining ourselves very well, isn’t listening to hear the other person out, or changing what we’re saying just for the sake of argument. I’ll try one more time to explain what I’m talking about and hope that our conversation improves.

You see, we aren’t actually very far apart on what we’re looking for. We actually agree on quite a few things.

To answer your first question, you get a better boxout rating, which in theory should mean something, however in 18 it barely means anything. If there were, and it appears there is in 19, ways to get off of boxouts such as swim moves, that would help. Also, you get better rebound ratings which increase the rebounding area the player can cover by pressing Y or triangle. I don’t agree with the way it’s currently done, but I have no control over that.

It seems like you are trying to say that at 6’11” 220 lbs, I’m not at a huge disadvantage against a 7’3” 340 badged up glass cleaner and that’s no where near the case. It’s just that most people that play this game rely on overalls, ratings, animations, and poor programming to be good instead of using basketball IQ and skills.

To conclude this topic, I don’t want someone with no skill, anticipation, timing, and no IQ to be a rebounding god just because they have high ratings or an arrow to tell them where the rebound is going to land.

As far as shooting...
If your on a basketball court in real life, and you get wide open, do you get the ball and just stand there and it magically leaves your hands and goes in the basket? No, you have to jump and release the ball at the correct moment. Just because you’re open doesn’t mean a made basket! So, yes, I want the QTE to be a factor in the process of getting an open look combined with ratings. If you mistime your release irl, most of the time, you miss. That is realistic basketball. I don’t understand your argument against this. Are you saying that you should just tap the button and that should be a make because you were open?

I also want the cheesy stuff to be gone and real life basketball to be rewarded. But unlike you, I want like to see badges, boosts, shot meters, and any other artificial help to be gone in the name of realistic basketball simulation.

Timing is a huge part of basketball in every single skill. Shooting requires timing, rebounding requires timing, defense requires timing, dribbling requires timing and yet you want to take it out because you’re not good at it? Is it currently over done for shooting, yes I 100% agree with that. But, taking it completely out of the shooting equation is idiotic.

If you respond with more misrepresentation of what I’m saying, you can finish this conversation by yourself. If you want to keep it civil and honest, I have no problem having an adult conversation with you. We can disagree and still have a good conversation. We may both learn something.


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[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

i bet ya never played basketball before, feeling like a shot is good in real life doesnt have any visual cues either, its just a feeling of confidence that was so high ya felt there was no way it was gonna miss, and also about feeling yourself into a rhythm, umm if i hit 2 or 3 3's in a row in real life or in 2k im feeling my self, im gonna throw up a heat check and find out just how hot i am, this "feel" ya never felt is a real thing, and it really happens to great players in 2k and in real life

I’m not sure if you quoted the wrong person or not, because everything you said is what I said in the quote. Lol


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[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Crying for help? I don't want the shot meter in the game...

Sorry bro, I was agreeing with you and addressing someone else with the “crying for help” part. MB


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[strawberryshortcake]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Spoiler

First, [emoji23] rookie mistake, I accidentally deleted the “[/ QUOTE ]” and misspelled it. Haha

I read your post, but I don’t play baseball games so it doesn’t really help me to understand your point when I don’t understand what you’re talking about in respect to that game, but I’ll go back and re-read it to see if I can make the connection.

Sim is the goal, to me, but I don’t want sim at the cost of skill. Meaning I don’t want someone that’s going to go 1/15 with any player to suddenly be good just because they are using Curry. If someone is 1/15 with anyone, they are that because they are no good and that’s how it should be.

Spoiler

I am not opposed to your idea about the scoreboard, it’s a decent idea that would add immersion.

I don’t really understand the Curry floating 3 icon. If you’re the coach of the team you should know your players strengths and weakness. If someone is playing this game and doesn’t know what Steph Curry is good at, I’m not sure why you feel that they should somehow be as good as someone that does when they obviously don’t know basketball as well as their opponent. I guess I don’t know why everyone in the arena would know what Curry is good at, but the person controlling him wouldn’t.

Again, people shouldn’t be good in h2h just because the player they are using has high ratings. If they don’t know basketball or how to play it, it is what it is if they decide to play h2h.
I’m strictly talking h2h, whatever someone does offline is of no concern to me.

It’s seems we are coming from two different ideologies when talking about “sim”.
You want to be sim Curry and I want sim basketball. You want to play a sim basketball video game and I want to play sim basketball. I’m not trying to be Curry, I’m trying to be me.
Nothing wrong with that and no reason that both of us can’t have what we’re looking for.



Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

Isn't basketball simulation more about knowing how to position your digital player, how to create open space, how to setup your teammate for an open shot, when to cut, when to drive and kick, when to abuse mismatches, when and where to take the shot, not taking heavily contested shots, etc. etc. etc. ... rather than whether or not someone watches a shooters' animation versus watching the shot meter? It's simply a different skill set. Both takes a certain level of skill.

I personally would rather play against someone who is proficient in both basketball IQ and have the ability to simulate their digital player correctly. It would be more satisfying to know I am able to lock down a person who knows how to green release Curry by heavily contesting his shot.

Part 1: Shot Meter vs Animation visuals are technically very similar; just interpreted differently:

Spoiler

Let me preface this by saying that even with a visible shot meter, you still have to watch the bar fill up and how quickly it fills up differs from one player to the next. Porzingis has a pretty fast shot meter; Isaiah Thomas has a pretty fast shot meter fill. It kind of threw me off and I had to adjust during my offline gameplay. Relying on 'shooting stroke animation' versus 'shot meter fill animation' is technically very similar to a certain extent. Both are visual cues just interpreted differently. The shot meter has always been on by default so that's why I personally use it. I just want to get into the game without fiddling with sliders or settings. If 2k19 releases the game on default without a shot meter, I'd probably just go the full cycle without the shot meter. I play with what's on default.

Honestly, to make things even more simulation, 2k should completely change the shot mechanics to account for "work = force x distance." If you're 5 feet behind the 3 point line, you have to push and release the stick with X amount of distance. If you're 10 feet behind, you have to push and release the stick with a greater amount, Z. Etc. etc. Depending on where you're standing on the court, you have to adjust the speed/pull/push of the stick. That will truly see who has better shooting stick skills. IRL, the amount of force behind your shot is highly dependent on how far you are from the basket. What about also adding trajectory and angle on video game shots to make things even more of a challenge -- bragging rights so to speak.

Part 2: Visual player attribute indicators allow your opponent to know what he/she will be facing without the need to watch game film, i.e. Brooklyn Nets, fairly unknown roster makeup.:

Spoiler

Let's put a different spin on things with regards to visual cues. As stated, I don't play online, but can names of players be also turned off in H2H? I simply used Curry because he and his court attributes are so well known.

Instead, let's use some "unknown" roster. Let's just take the Brooklyn Nets 2018-2019 roster. Bolded players are those that I have heard about, but even those I don't know much about their "game."

Having visual cues (i.e.shot meter) and player attributes displayed during the game not only helps the user/coach controlling the Brooklyn Nets, but it also lets the opponent understand the Nets' players strength during H2H competition without having to watch film, run attribute checks (can you even do this on H2H competition before the game starts?). You may know your team well but your opponent may not. The fastest way for your opponent to improvise a gameplan is to know who has a 3 point badge, or a rebounder badge or whatever player indicators available. On top of that what about randoms who chooses to use any team because they can play a sound game of basketball regardless of the players attributes.

Note: I personally don't even look at any player's ratings, attributes, badges, etc. I currently play exhibition play now matches 12 minute quarters, hall of fame, default sliders, default all settings. The only thing that I realized I could do was change game speed (just yesterday).


13 Quincy Acy SF 27 6-7 240 Baylor
31 Jarrett Allen C 20 6-11 234 Texas $2,034,120
00 Darrell Arthur PF 30 6-9 235 Kansas $7,464,912
9 DeMarre Carroll SF 32 6-8 215 Missouri $15,400,000
33 Allen Crabbe SG 26 6-6 215 California $18,500,000
-- Mitchell Creek F 26 6-5 198
17 Ed Davis PF 29 6-10 245 North Carolina $4,449,000
8 Spencer Dinwiddie PG 25 6-6 200 Colorado $1,656,092
14 Milton Doyle SG 24 6-4 180 Loyola (IL)
3 Jared Dudley SF 33 6-7 240 Boston College $9,530,000
35 Kenneth Faried PF 28 6-8 228 Morehead State $13,764,045
-- Treveon Graham SG 24 6-5 219 Virginia Commonwealth
12 Joe Harris SF 26 6-6 219 Virginia $8,000,000
24 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson SF 23 6-7 214 Arizona $2,470,357
-- Rodions Kurucs SF 20 6-9 220 $1,618,320
22 Caris LeVert SG 24 6-7 203 Michigan $1,702,800
10 Jordan McLaughlin G 22 6-1 185
-- Dzanan Musa SG 19 6-9 195 $1,632,240
6 Shabazz Napier PG 27 6-1 175 Connecticut $1,942,422
1 D'Angelo Russell PG 22 6-5 195 Ohio State $7,019,698
0 James Webb III SF 25 6-9 202 Boise State


Brooklyn Nets 2018-2019 roster. The following is all I know about the Nets roster.
-Allen Crabbe can shoot an outside shot, but I have no clue if he is remotely close to being a sufficient, efficient or elite 3 point shooter. Former Blazer.
-Quincy Acy is a semi-big man with a beard I think. That's all I know about him. Former Knicks.
-Kenneth Faried is an energy guy, monster rebounder, and an energizer. Former Nugget.
-DeMarre Carroll. Can shoot the 3 semi- efficiently. Former Raptors. I think he has dreadlocks.
-Shabazz Napier. Point guard. Not sure about his 2 point or 3 point shot. Not a clue. Former Heat, former blazer, Played college ball at UConn.
-D'Angelo Russell. Got into some type of beef with a lakers' and something with social media and Iggy Azalea. Former Lakers.
-Ed Davis. Fantastic rebounder. Left hand shot. Can possibly shoot a three I think. Former Blazer.

Part 3: To piggyback off of your most recent response to El_Poopador, the general point I believe he is making is that indicators such as the shot meter and rebounding badge should not hurt the level of competition. It's simply there to help distinguish the various players on the court. It's simply a "name tag." If a three pointer badge allows me to identify my opponent's perimeter threat, it would allow me to strategically defend that digital player different. Seeing a 3 point badge next to player X, and I know not to let him get off a 3 point shot uncontested.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

To answer your first question, you get a better boxout rating, which in theory should mean something, however in 18 it barely means anything. If there were, and it appears there is in 19, ways to get off of boxouts such as swim moves, that would help.

This isn't answering my question. Having better ratings doesn't answer the question of how someone with better ratings feels different. In 2k18, Isaiah Thomas could consistently box out Andre Drummond in 2k18.

Also, you get better rebound ratings which increase the rebounding area the player can cover by pressing Y or triangle. I don’t agree with the way it’s currently done, but I have no control over that.

This is 1000x worse than having a shot meter. You don't even need to be in position; just press Y/Triangle and you jump toward the ball. That's not realistic. But as it stands, it's the only thing that separates great rebounders from average ones in the game.

It seems like you are trying to say that at 6’11” 220 lbs, I’m not at a huge disadvantage against a 7’3” 340 badged up glass cleaner and that’s no where near the case. It’s just that most people that play this game rely on overalls, ratings, animations, and poor programming to be good instead of using basketball IQ and skills.

You're not understanding my question. I'm asking what makes those two builds feel any different in the hands of the same user. If you play one game with the 6'11" player and another with the 7'3" glass cleaner, does the second game actually feel like you're controlling a better rebounder than the first? If you are already able to grab 10+ boards with a 70 rebound/box out rating, what is the point of upgrading those any further, or creating that glass cleaning build?

To conclude this topic, I don’t want someone with no skill, anticipation, timing, and no IQ to be a rebounding god just because they have high ratings or an arrow to tell them where the rebound is going to land.

Literally no one said that we want someone with no skill, anticipation, timing, or IQ to be a rebounding god because of ratings. But there needs to be something that makes rebounding easier for someone with higher ratings that isn't just warping the ball to their hands. Like a shooter having a larger window to hit their shot, a rebounder knowing where the ball will bounce earlier than a non-rebounder would be a good start. The user still needs to get to the spot and time their jump, but it gives them a slight advantage based on their higher rating. And if they get boxed out, they would still need to fight for position to grab the board.

As far as shooting...
If your on a basketball court in real life, and you get wide open, do you get the ball and just stand there and it magically leaves your hands and goes in the basket? No, you have to jump and release the ball at the correct moment. Just because you’re open doesn’t mean a made basket! So, yes, I want the QTE to be a factor in the process of getting an open look combined with ratings. If you mistime your release irl, most of the time, you miss. That is realistic basketball. I don’t understand your argument against this. Are you saying that you should just tap the button and that should be a make because you were open?

If I shoot with a different form every time I shoot in real life, should I make the shot just because I can time my release at the top of my jump? No, but when you shoot in real life, there is more than just timing. Going by your example, do you get the ball and jump, then just let go of the ball at the top and it magically goes in the basket? No, there are a ton of factors that go into shooting the ball. A video game cannot possibly replicate those factors, and making shot success dependent on a single factor when you can't adjust the others is not realistic.

And there are times when you will change that release timing, as I have stated numerous times. A defender closing out will speed up your shooting motion, thus changing the release timing. If a defender jumps slightly earlier, you may wait a moment longer to release until they're on the way back down. But when that happens, you can adjust the other aspects of your shooting motion to account for that change. I can flick my wrist a little harder, push a little faster with my arm, change the trajectory of the shot, etc. In a video game, you can't do any of those. You only have control over one part of the shot.

I also want the cheesy stuff to be gone and real life basketball to be rewarded. But unlike you, I want like to see badges, boosts, shot meters, and any other artificial help to be gone in the name of realistic basketball simulation.

I do want those things gone. Again, I play on ratings only offline, so the shot meter isn't a thing. But online, timing is forced, so the meter is just another way to read the animation. The difference is that the meter can provide feedback. In real life, you know after you shoot if you messed up your motion. In a video game, you aren't the one actually shooting the ball, so you don't get to feel the shot mechanics.

The meter is still there as long as timing is included in the formula; you just want it to be invisible.

Timing is a huge part of basketball in every single skill. Shooting requires timing, rebounding requires timing, defense requires timing, dribbling requires timing and yet you want to take it out because you’re not good at it? Is it currently over done for shooting, yes I 100% agree with that. But, taking it completely out of the shooting equation is idiotic.

No, I want to take it out because it does not realistically represent shooting. Again, in real life, there is more to shooting than just the release. Dumbing it down to one aspect and calling it skill is asinine. And when it may not be consistent based on lag, it's even less realistic. How many times have you shot a ball in real life and the ball stuck to your hands for an extra half-second after you went though the motion? Input lag doesn't exist in real life.

I would rather have success be based on playing sound basketball to my players' strengths than knowing when to let go of a button.

[ILLSmak]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

What's the difference between a 70 and 99 rebounder? The magnetism of their hands, animations, ability to step thru box outs, harder box outs. Probably even whether the ball squirts out of their hands or whether the other player will lose it to a tip out.

You don't need a rebounding build cuz there are no bad rebounding builds assuming max height n wingspan. Not much difference between a stretch five and a post scorer imo. However, a Glass cleaner is monstrous. You rarely saw them in 18 and when you did they were bad, but if someone knew how to play (and prol boosted ha) you'd have to play well to have it be like 15 reb to 9.


And yes of course it feels like you're controlling a better rebounder, just like shooting or anything else. You can play the same way and pull a shot but one build it actually goes in.


-Smak

[awg811]

Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

Isn't basketball simulation more about knowing how to position your digital player, how to create open space, how to setup your teammate for an open shot, when to cut, when to drive and kick, when to abuse mismatches, when and where to take the shot, not taking heavily contested shots, etc. etc. etc. ... rather than whether or not someone watches a shooters' animation versus watching the shot meter? It's simply a different skill set. Both takes a certain level of skill.

I wouldn’t say rather than. I’m not sure why all of those things would be important, but timing or watching the animation would be less important, if in fact that’s what you’re implying.

If instead you are trying to make a case for why the shot meter is the same thing as watching the animation, I’ll address that also.

I’ll assume that you have heard of shot mechanics. NBA players, college players, and basketball players of any significance, all spend 1000’s of hours perfecting their shot mechanics and/or working with shooting coaches to perfect these mechanics.

The shot meter takes those shot mechanics and throws them out the window for the much easier, watch the bar fill up and release the button/ball when the meter is full. So, instead of learning the shooting mechanics of the player, which vary from player to player, now all you have to do is learn how fast or slow the meter fills up and release it when it’s full. It’s small intricacies like these that visual aids take out of the game to make it easier for less skilled players to compete.
Anyone can watch a meter fill up and be close to filling it completely at a much higher rate than perfecting the animation or shot mechanics of individual shots.

I personally would rather play against someone who is proficient in both basketball IQ and have the ability to simulate their digital player correctly. It would be more satisfying to know I am able to lock down a person who knows how to green release Curry by heavily contesting his shot.

I don’t fully disagree, but as I stated before, the level of skill changes when you take away the shot meter and make the focus on shot mechanics. Additionally, green releases are also a problem that the shot meter introduced.

Part 1: Shot Meter vs Animation visuals are technically very similar; just interpreted differently:

Spoiler

Let me preface this by saying that even with a visible shot meter, you still have to watch the bar fill up and how quickly it fills up differs from one player to the next. Porzingis has a pretty fast shot meter; Isaiah Thomas has a pretty fast shot meter fill. It kind of threw me off and I had to adjust during my offline gameplay. Relying on 'shooting stroke animation' versus 'shot meter fill animation' is technically very similar to a certain extent. Both are visual cues just interpreted differently. The shot meter has always been on by default so that's why I personally use it. I just want to get into the game without fiddling with sliders or settings. If 2k19 releases the game on default without a shot meter, I'd probably just go the full cycle without the shot meter. I play with what's on default.

Spoiler

So, while I agree that they are similar in that they both require timing, the shot meter makes that timing much easier to gage. I’d argue that this is the reason that so many are against its removal, because it adds another layer of difficulty and skill if it were removed.

The shot meter has not always been on by default, it was only added within the last 4 or 5 years. Since then it has always been on by default. Also, since then shot percentages have increased and it’s a main factor in the whole OP sharps and contested makes problem. [emoji848]

Honestly, to make things even more simulation, 2k should completely change the shot mechanics to account for "work = force x distance." If you're 5 feet behind the 3 point line, you have to push and release the stick with X amount of distance. If you're 10 feet behind, you have to push and release the stick with a greater amount, Z. Etc. etc. Depending on where you're standing on the court, you have to adjust the speed/pull/push of the stick. That will truly see who has better shooting stick skills. IRL, the amount of force behind your shot is highly dependent on how far you are from the basket. What about also adding trajectory and angle on video game shots to make things even more of a challenge -- bragging rights so to speak.

While this isn’t a bad idea, it would be very hard to implement and the level of backlash would be extreme! A year or two ago, 2k tried adding in the aiming part and it failed because of how difficult it is to program it correctly. Again, this is on 2k not me.
The problem is, once they add in a feature, such as the shot meter to make the easier for casual players, it’s extremely difficult to remove them because of the backlash they will receive. And this is why I’m against adding more of them, such as the rebounding arrow.
If I’m not mistaken, Mike Wang said that adding in the shot meter and green releases were some of the biggest mistakes they have made. Or something very similar to that.

Part 2: Visual player attribute indicators allow your opponent to know what he/she will be facing without the need to watch game film, i.e. Brooklyn Nets, fairly unknown roster makeup.:

Spoiler

Let's put a different spin on things with regards to visual cues. As stated, I don't play online, but can names of players be also turned off in H2H? I simply used Curry because he and his court attributes are so well known.

Spoiler

First, knowledge of the game is an important aspect of being good at the game. Knowing the player you will be guarding helps you know how to defend said player. If you don’t know the strengths and weakness of the person you are guarding, then you better guard them for everything. Adding yet another layer of skill.
I’m not sure where you are going with “can names of players also be turned off in h2h”. In basketball players all have their names and numbers on their jerseys, so I’m a bit confused.

Instead, let's use some "unknown" roster. Let's just take the Brooklyn Nets 2018-2019 roster. Bolded players are those that I have heard about, but even those I don't know much about their "game."

Having visual cues (i.e.shot meter) and player attributes displayed during the game not only helps the user/coach controlling the Brooklyn Nets, but it also lets the opponent understand the Nets' players strength during H2H competition without having to watch film, run attribute checks (can you even do this on H2H competition before the game starts?). You may know your team well but your opponent may not. The fastest way for your opponent to improvise a gameplan is to know who has a 3 point badge, or a rebounder badge or whatever player indicators available. On top of that what about randoms who chooses to use any team because they can play a sound game of basketball regardless of the players attributes.

A key word here is random. Why would or should a “random” be given help for being a “random” in a h2h game? The point of completion is to find out who the most skilled, most knowledgeable player is. By giving a “random” or the less skilled/knowledgeable player help, you are decreasing the importance of skill and knowledge.
They test players in all sports for performance enhancing drugs, but in 2k, they encourage it with boosts, badges, meters, etc.
You see, if the shot meter wasn’t of great help to those with less skill, there wouldn’t but such backlash when discussing its removal.

Brooklyn Nets 2018-2019 roster. The following is all I know about the Nets roster.
-Allen Crabbe can shoot an outside shot, but I have no clue if he is remotely close to being a sufficient, efficient or elite 3 point shooter. Former Blazer.
-Quincy Acy is a semi-big man with a beard I think. That's all I know about him. Former Knicks.
-Kenneth Faried is an energy guy, monster rebounder, and an energizer. Former Nugget.
-DeMarre Carroll. Can shoot the 3 semi- efficiently. Former Raptors. I think he has dreadlocks.
-Shabazz Napier. Point guard. Not sure about his 2 point or 3 point shot. Not a clue. Former Heat, former blazer, Played college ball at UConn.
-D'Angelo Russell. Got into some type of beef with a lakers' and something with social media and Iggy Azalea. Former Lakers.
-Ed Davis. Fantastic rebounder. Left hand shot. Can possibly shoot a three I think. Former Blazer.

So, it’s fine that you only know a select few people on some teams. What’s not fine, IMO, is to ask 2k to help put you on the same level as someone that does know those thing in a h2h situation.
It seems that you think that I’m again helping people that need help outside of a competitive h2h game and that’s not the case. All of my statements apply only to competitive h2h.

This is the reason that 2k needs to implement RANKED and UNRANKED lobbies.
That way more competitive, knowledgeable, skilled players could play ranked matches without all of the visual aids, boosts, badges, shot meters, and help and casuals could play with them.

Part 3: To piggyback off of your most recent response to El_Poopador, the general point I believe he is making is that indicators such as the shot meter and rebounding badge should not hurt the level of competition. It's simply there to help distinguish the various players on the court. It's simply a "name tag." If a three pointer badge allows me to identify my opponent's perimeter threat, it would allow me to strategically defend that digital player different. Seeing a 3 point badge next to player X, and I know not to let him get off a 3 point shot uncontested.

Again, the “help” is the issue with this entire discussion.
In a competitive h2h game, any “help” takes away from the competitive aspect.
For instance, you wouldn’t be in a weight lifting competition and have two guys on the ends of the bar helping one weaker guy compete with the guy that’s lifting the weight on his own. Why then would you think that “helping” is acceptable in a competitive game?
Again, a competitive and casual h2h system could solve the issue of some people needing help. If you decide, as a casual, to take on someone in a ranked match, you forfeit the right to have “help” and the outcome relies on knowledge, skill, and IQ.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[awg811]

Re: Contested Shot Making. Sim or Not Sim?: A Proposition

This isn't answering my question. Having better ratings doesn't answer the question of how someone with better ratings feels different. In 2k18, Isaiah Thomas could consistently box out Andre Drummond in 2k18.



This is 1000x worse than having a shot meter. You don't even need to be in position; just press Y/Triangle and you jump toward the ball. That's not realistic. But as it stands, it's the only thing that separates great rebounders from average ones in the game.



You're not understanding my question. I'm asking what makes those two builds feel any different in the hands of the same user. If you play one game with the 6'11" player and another with the 7'3" glass cleaner, does the second game actually feel like you're controlling a better rebounder than the first? If you are already able to grab 10+ boards with a 70 rebound/box out rating, what is the point of upgrading those any further, or creating that glass cleaning build?



Literally no one said that we want someone with no skill, anticipation, timing, or IQ to be a rebounding god because of ratings. But there needs to be something that makes rebounding easier for someone with higher ratings that isn't just warping the ball to their hands. Like a shooter having a larger window to hit their shot, a rebounder knowing where the ball will bounce earlier than a non-rebounder would be a good start. The user still needs to get to the spot and time their jump, but it gives them a slight advantage based on their higher rating. And if they get boxed out, they would still need to fight for position to grab the board.



If I shoot with a different form every time I shoot in real life, should I make the shot just because I can time my release at the top of my jump? No, but when you shoot in real life, there is more than just timing. Going by your example, do you get the ball and jump, then just let go of the ball at the top and it magically goes in the basket? No, there are a ton of factors that go into shooting the ball. A video game cannot possibly replicate those factors, and making shot success dependent on a single factor when you can't adjust the others is not realistic.

And there are times when you will change that release timing, as I have stated numerous times. A defender closing out will speed up your shooting motion, thus changing the release timing. If a defender jumps slightly earlier, you may wait a moment longer to release until they're on the way back down. But when that happens, you can adjust the other aspects of your shooting motion to account for that change. I can flick my wrist a little harder, push a little faster with my arm, change the trajectory of the shot, etc. In a video game, you can't do any of those. You only have control over one part of the shot.



I do want those things gone. Again, I play on ratings only offline, so the shot meter isn't a thing. But online, timing is forced, so the meter is just another way to read the animation. The difference is that the meter can provide feedback. In real life, you know after you shoot if you messed up your motion. In a video game, you aren't the one actually shooting the ball, so you don't get to feel the shot mechanics.

The meter is still there as long as timing is included in the formula; you just want it to be invisible.



No, I want to take it out because it does not realistically represent shooting. Again, in real life, there is more to shooting than just the release. Dumbing it down to one aspect and calling it skill is asinine. And when it may not be consistent based on lag, it's even less realistic. How many times have you shot a ball in real life and the ball stuck to your hands for an extra half-second after you went though the motion? Input lag doesn't exist in real life.

I would rather have success be based on playing sound basketball to my players' strengths than knowing when to let go of a button.

We’re done.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports