Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

[Jukeman]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

One question I would like to post to anyone who is panicking about POTENTIAL is have you ever actually gone more than 2 seasons in an Association? Take it from someone who had 4 associations going over 5 years each (longest being 8 years) in nba2k11 that POTENTIAL is not as big an issue as you ARE IMAGINING IT TO BE

Some things to think about

-Potential effects regression rate and trade value(it does matter for older players)

-The amount of 80+ OVR players double in later years of association, this will effect player roles even more than it does with 2k's default roster (players are rated too high for the roles they have causing them to complain)

so what if Tmac is 97 potential? what is his ovr?? get my drift?? if you actually play the game instead of imagining things you'd even see some Free Agents with "A" potential yet 50s in their OVR and UP there in Age (28 +yrs)

as 50 being very low, I bet if that same guy was a 60 OVR he would want a pretty good contract

Potential is not the end all and be all, and even if you have someone with 99POT which I edit my "cornerstone rookie" (I do this for fun in my associations so I literally see how they progress), it takes a MINIMUM 3years for them to even hit mid 80sOVR provided you give them proper training/etc and were actually drafted top10, god help you if they were drafted later and starts off at mid60s ovr, it'll take them 5 years MINIMUM to be starter material REGARDLESS of their 99potential

When I create my draft classes, I rate guys between 50-75 while randomly (via random.org) giving them a potential rating on a scale of 25-99, therefore I see a 50 OVR with 99 POT or even a 75 OVR with 25 POT




I love the fact that people do regress, you can't expect Dwight Howard to lead the league in rebounds forever, he is 25.. so others will knock him off his perch so to speak, but what he will be if 2k12 holds up is the same as 2k11.. he will always be a force the Magic will build around him and you'll see him in the playoffs and maybe even Finals as the years go by, he'll always be "Superman" down there in ORL

Also, You mention that the Clippers always become a power house in your association because they easily get a lottery pick every year, I doubt that would happen every time if the draft class had a diverse potential rating for players...You would not see a 75 OVR player with 25 potential (he is who he is and won't get much better) in a NBA 2k generated draft class..

[SwaggerCoach]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Also, You mention that the Clippers always become a power house in your association because they easily get a lottery pick every year, I doubt that would happen every time if the draft class had a diverse potential rating for players...You would not see a 75 OVR player with 25 potential (he is who he is and won't get much better) in a NBA 2k generated draft class..

Jukeman, you just gave me an excellent idea - i love using random numbers for player potential in rookie classes and limiting their OVR to between 50-75.

You're definitely adding a ton of value to the thread.

CW and I are hard at work simulating a few seasons by experimenting with player potential. We're running 25 key players at 25 POT, 50 POT, and 75 POT to see where everyone ends up.

We'd found some startling evidence earlier that even lowering potential for guys like Yi Jianlian down to 75 barely had any impact...he still shot up 16 overall. We're really hoping 2K just doesn't predestine players to reach certain OVL.

We'll find out soon.

[Jukeman]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Jukeman, you just gave me an excellent idea - i love using random numbers for player potential in rookie classes and limiting their OVR to between 50-75.

You're definitely adding a ton of value to the thread.

CW and I are hard at work simulating a few seasons by experimenting with player potential. We're running 25 key players at 25 POT, 50 POT, and 75 POT to see where everyone ends up.

We'd found some startling evidence earlier that even lowering potential for guys like Yi Jianlian down to 75 barely had any impact...he still shot up 16 overall. We're really hoping 2K just doesn't predestine players to reach certain OVL.

We'll find out soon.

Thanks, I actually have a set formula for exporting players from my Choops 2k8 legacy into NBA2k10-12 and 50-75 is what the guys come out around, its also a great number for rookies because it gives them time to grow and with the current potential system, a 75 OVR rookie can get to a 90+ in his prime!

seem like 2k is adopting that rate for rookies also I notice a drop in rookie OVR in the last few years, altho I wonder what this year's rookie class look like.

Also confirm that Pot will have a effect on draft stock. I took the lowest rated player on 2k's generic draft class (43 OVR 60 Pot) and gave him a 99 pot...He went from "undrafted" to "2 round". I did the same for the highest rated player but gave him a 25 pot, he went from "top 5" to "lottery"...

We can make sleepers and bust!


edit-

I think I found a way to not have all players play in all 82 games, it involves control of all 30 teams and player roles...Hope it wasn't a fluke but Im going to run another test after I play some games

[Pitfighter87]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

@Pitfighter... the draft classes are coming along very well. I'm pleased with what I have so far. I like to throw little things in like brothers from the same college in the same draft (ala the Morris and Lopez brothers) and players who have talents that aren't necessarily common for a certain position (point guards that are exceptional rebounders or big men who can drain the three). I don't like to have those drafts where the lower ranked players are useless. With my drafts you might draft a big man in the second round with a 58 overall and terrible potential but a beast guarding the post. You're going to want to keep a spot for that guy on your roster. I work so much and stuff like this is my temporary escape so I hope other people enjoy it. I'll be done with the first draft class sometime today and the next three by Sunday night. The problem is getting these potential ratings on point for the default roster so that everything runs smoothly.

AWESOME!!!Are you doin the actual draft classes for 12?H.Barnes,A.Davis,etc.

[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

I wish I could man but I simply suck at the appearances so I figured I would let the vets handle the real drafts. They would probably be finished before me anyway since I work so much. I'm just going to create some fictional classes. I should have one done tonight. Trying to decide whether to just upload that one or wait until I finish like three on Sunday and release them all together.

[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

And for whomever it was that was asking earlier about the minutes for Dwight, he was only averaging 33.6 minutes per game so the minutes were definitely off. Anyway to fix this for a computer operated team?

[antdoggydogg]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

nope. Thats why I just do a 30 team association just to control their rotations. I usually have to stick Dwight at about 41-44 minutes, foul trouble helps limit him to his regular minutes averaged. If you have time try running a 30 team association with proper rotations, injuries off, and let us know the end of season stats. But if you've got other things to do dont worry about it, I'm pretty sure its just a minutes problem

[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Thanks ant. This may sound like a dumb question but is there a way to do a 30 team association and assign certain tasks to the computer like you can with a one team association? If so, this shoulnt be too much of a problem.

[Jukeman]

Thanks ant. This may sound like a dumb question but is there a way to do a 30 team association and assign certain tasks to the computer like you can with a one team association? If so, this shoulnt be too much of a problem.

Yea, they'll even trade for themselves (not sure if you want that tho lol)

Also, how is the fouls for sim stats? If they're off (too high) this could be a reason why the rotation minutes are not accurate.


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[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

You know as I typed my last message I was thinking about fouls. That was a problem last year.especially with computer generated big men. Computer generated bigs would be averaging like 25 minutes because they're commit foul rating would be maxed out. Ill look at that also. Good look Juke.

[antdoggydogg]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Yea I have DeMarcus Cousins rotation at 40 minutes but he's averaging about 28 minutes per game due to foul trouble lol. But I lowered his commit fouls tendencies cause I would think by his 3rd year in the league he'd learn how to stay on the court. But for the association question, yea you can make the computer do basically everything but i wouldnt let them touch rotations/lineups, trades, or anything that'll effect your rotations or anything so you can see some accurate stats after you sim.

[haloofduty]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Yea, they'll even trade for themselves (not sure if you want that tho lol)

Also, how is the fouls for sim stats? If they're off (too high) this could be a reason why the rotation minutes are not accurate.


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The computer basically sets the same rotation minutes for every team unless you control them all. No one really averages over 37 minutes a game. Rotation minutes were bad last year but at least they gave certain players high minutes depending on skill. Now the average is 34-35 minutes a game for everyone. They may give a couple guys 36-37 minutes.

Its wacky because with fouls their minutes are lower. I tried everything to correct it. Only thing that works is controlling all 30 teams, turning off injuries and don't let the computer handle lineups. If you are controlling one team rotation minutes for the other teams will always be to low. It makes rebounding sim stats to low. Some players assist stats are to low also.

I have a roster with accurate sim stats and rotations but the roster is saved in my association. When you start association all rotations are reset so I had to do it in association and save. I may experiment with the low minute default roster though. I wish 2k would at least patch rotations. Correcting sim stats is no problem I been doing it for years but when rotation minutes are messed up there is only so much you can do. Some stats are going to be lower because of lower minutes.

[Comduklakis]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

You know as I typed my last message I was thinking about fouls. That was a problem last year.especially with computer generated big men. Computer generated bigs would be averaging like 25 minutes because they're commit foul rating would be maxed out. Ill look at that also. Good look Juke.

Glad to see you doing so much work on association. I only buy the game for the association mode (I dabble in myplayer but seem to lose interest) so before purchasing I wanted to see if the association had been improved at all. On the surface it sounds like they didn't really touch it, spending all their time on other modes and additions to the game, which I find seriously disappointing. I generally run a 30 team association because I just can't handle the awful trade logic and free agency signing logic. But that doesn't fix the problem with sim sats.

In the past I also have had to adjust the draft picks. The biggest flaws are of course the tendencies. Shot tendencies are usually ridiculously low, resulting in top talents being reluctant to shoot. I always used Chris Duhon and Tayshaun Prince as the baseline for guys who are low shot tendency players, and found almost every draft pick to be below their shot tendency ratings. Almost every draft pick was in the 30s or even lower. In addition to the this obvious issue and the potential issue, i found that many of the ratings for younger players in the areas of "in traffic" and "inside shot" were very low. I took baseline NBA players at each position and compared and found several categories, but those two in particular to be contributing to the low shooting percentages. Taking the time to fix those ratings doesn't completely solve all the sim stat problems, but it helped.

I do find it concerning that the shooting percentages continue to fall as the years go on and the assists fall as well. I have simmed associations out for 20 plus years (as far as it took for every current NBA player and the first 4 real player college picks to retire) and found as the years go on the shooting percentages are atrocious. By year 20 most teams are lucky to shoot .420. Almost no one shoots 50% as an individual. What's truly bizarre is the 3% stays fairly steady, so it's the 2 point FG % that is obviously the issue. And of course rebounds skyrocket as a result.

I haven't decided whether I will purchase the new version or not. I always figured I'd wait until the patches are in and the post-lockout when rookies are added anyways, so we'll see it the patches make any difference. Here's hoping they spend some real time improving the assocation mode in NBA2k13, it's certainly sounding like it's getting neglected year after year.

[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

Ahhhh, they're driving me crazy. Well guys, once I get off of work ill run another simulation and see if we can get these numbers a little more realistic. At this rate I won't be actually playing the fame until november lol.

[CWSapp757]

Re: Some info for those of you that like to go deep into your Association.....

And yes com, you hit it right on the head with draft classes. Except for maybe a couple of guys, computer generated rookies generally have very very very low shooting ratings and tendencies. Saw a guard that reached a 90 overall averaging 9.9 points and like 5 rebounds and 4 assists. Unless your name is Rondo, how many players can you think of rated that high averaging 10 points a game. Looked into it and saw that he had great dribbling, rebounding and offensive awareness ratings but pretty low shooting ratings. Not to mention his shooting tendency was in the mid 40s. That shocked me cause I know last year, shot tendency increased with overall if I am not mistaking. Gotta check that later also. I truly feel that you have to play with the draft classes to make the mode work as intended.