2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

[kmiree16]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

Spacing has been an issue for years, but if spacing was properly implemented into the game, things like the close out speed, passing accuracy and the slow catch animations. It wouldn't make a difference imo. Spacing is a pain in the rear, but I think these other issues need to be fixed then worry about the spacing, which can really be covered up by calling plays.

Calling plays, really take the "thinking" away from your cpu controlled teammates, it gives them an assignment for a little while, which is more productive imo than just standing and doing random cuts. I think the cpu is designed for plays to be called, and not really run a reading and react type of offense, the main reason why we never had a true triangle offense in the game. We haven't made it there(sports games) where the cpu can properly read and react and we don't have to rely on set plays.

Things like the close out speed and the terrible catching animations(halfcourt) are the little things that really hold this game back and are completely fixable.
In real life the ball will always be faster than any player, that's why great ball movement can beat great defensive rotations, but not in 2k where the defensive recoveries are so fast, that it covers all the defensive holes. It's unrealistic and disgusting that with ten plus years, they still have to rely on this tactic to help the cpu out.

The Catch animations take way to long, for a shooter to shot basically. The game takes away control so I can't shoot as soon as my player catches it. I know this was long, and spacing does need fixing but 2k has to get rid of these cheap tactics to help cover up their flaws.

Totally agree 100%. You hit the nail on the head.

[Slava Medvadenko]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

In real life the ball will always be faster than any player, that's why great ball movement can beat great defensive rotations, but not in 2k where the defensive recoveries are so fast, that it covers all the defensive holes.

The Catch animations take way to long, for a shooter to shot basically. The game takes away control so I can't shoot as soon as my player catches it.

Yes. Watch any NBA game and the pass speed is so much better than in 2k13. The slow pass and catch animations sometimes void even the most basic plays. The ball bobbling in this game doesn't help either. Basic standing catches are bobbled. Wide open cutters in the lane bobble until they run out of bounds. If they get this right(big if, since these issues have been there for years) and the AI is improved so it doesn't get in you way on drives it'll do a lot for the spacing.

[Serra11]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

What I also hate is when you'll drive and kick out to an open teammate who's a step or two behind the 3 point line, he won't take a step in and take a shot. He'll sit there, hold the ball and wait for the defense to get back into position. That is unacceptable.

This is just a player shot tendencies problem: probably these are too low.

[jersez]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

The closeouts are terrible. However, i dont think the defenders speed is the sole problem.

1) lack of momentum. Defenders are able to change directions unrealistically and jump from non jumping positions to contest shots.

2) the game rarely calls fouls on defenders who fly into and through jumpshooters. If 2k called fouls on the closeouts this alone would cure the rotation and contest problem.

3) cpu defenders react to the button push of the user and rotate before the pass is even made. This head start makes ball rotation very difficult.

Agreed, just more things to add to what was previously stated. I've been asking for momentum for a couple of years now, but 2k hasn't fixed their foot planting system, which is why sliding still exist in their game.

[sirjam]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

Agreed, just more things to add to what was previously stated. I've been asking for momentum for a couple of years now, but 2k hasn't fixed their foot planting system, which is why sliding still exist in their game.

Bc if they implemented that then the players would be slower and you would have people complaining about how slow lebron is but in real life he so fast wtf. lol, They should have two games, one for the sim true hoopers and one for the arcade children gamers. U know the ones that turbo everywhere and run zone all day.

[Optik]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

Bc if they implemented that then the players would be slower and you would have people complaining about how slow lebron is but in real life he so fast wtf. lol, They should have two games, one for the sim true hoopers and one for the arcade children gamers. U know the ones that turbo everywhere and run zone all day.

They need to ignore the arcade infants and focus on producing a sim game. This game still has several arcade elements in it, including the forcefields at the baseline and sideline which is just holding the player's hand, AND the inconsistency of 'live ball', which means once they do the initial 'push the ball out' animation when they're pressing trubo, as long as they press turbo they can dribble into and through defenders without losing their dribble. That's absurd and it needs to stop.

[blues rocker]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

i want my teammates to cut on their own, but only when it makes sense...not just randomly. for example if i drive and draw a second defender who leaves the paint open...my open teammate should then know to cut to the hoop on his own. this is an example of a good "automatic" cut. a bad automatic cut is when you have a teammate wide open for a jumper but he just randomly decides to cut into a crowd of players for no reason...or if i'm driving to the hoop and my teammate just decides to cut into my path, thus clogging the paint with his body and his man. they just need to work on making the AI better at recognizing when it's good to cut and when it's not.

[TalenT]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

i want my teammates to cut on their own, but only when it makes sense...not just randomly. for example if i drive and draw a second defender who leaves the paint open...my open teammate should then know to cut to the hoop on his own. this is an example of a good "automatic" cut. a bad automatic cut is when you have a teammate wide open for a jumper but he just randomly decides to cut into a crowd of players for no reason...or if i'm driving to the hoop and my teammate just decides to cut into my path, thus clogging the paint with his body and his man. they just need to work on making the AI better at recognizing when it's good to cut and when it's not.

I agree w/ this 110%. There's nothing worse than driving into the paint, having somebody waiting in the corner for a wide open shot only to have him run toward the paint (AND the defense) resulting in a horrible contact animation.

[Vni]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

I think some of the stuff you cite is an issue but if you go play a game, then afterwards sit back and watch all your gametrack footage in slow motion, you'll probably be surprised at how good the AI is at spacing the floor most of the time.

I disagree man. Sometimes you would run a play and a guy would end up wide open on the wing but right as the play ends he'd run into the clogged paint mostly resulting in a turnover. It's even worse online because sometimes you have a half a second delay on your input.

They need to add an option on the coach profiles where you can set wether you want your players to do theses random off ball movements or not.

[Serra11]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

They need to add an option on the coach profiles where you can set wether you want your players to do theses random off ball movements or not.

Far away better would be a player tendency:cut to the basket from weak side!
High=D.Wade,Lebron,Tony Allen,Leonard...
Low=Battier,Thompson,Belinelli...

[bigtreydawg]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

You can fix close out speed if you play in season or association mode.

Turn game speed to 70

Turn the player speed in (season, association) to 30 or lower.

It makes some of the animations awkward but now the ball is faster than the player.

[vannwolfhawk]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

I agree with op. I saw a lot about passing speed in this thread and this has bugged me for years as its not realistic to real life. I talked to devs about this last year and said players can't move faster than the ball. Im always telling my guards to pass the ball up the floor because the pass and ball move faster than you do. I even asked them about possibly giving us and adding a pass speed slider. Changing pass speed even so slightly apparently changes everything from catching animations, etc which causes numerous other issues and bugs within the game. Hopefully they found a solution for this in 14?!

I liked the idea someone brought up about having a tendency for cutting or spotting up. Guys like battier staying in the corner spacing the floor waiting for ball reversal and a 3 ball. I think they made some strides with spacing from 12 but I also agree with a post in the thread about how they are catering to those who don't call plays with having to much off ball movement. It's not a college game with motion offense. The NBA is all about quick plays and spacing.

I'd like to see us users have the ability to call a PNR to either the left or right side and have players auto space to correct spots. Same with all quick plays, post ups, iso's etc. IMO eliminate freelance and have auto plays turned auto on for the people who don't wish to call plays. If they want to freelance call a iso or quick play. 75% of plays in NBA are PNR, post ups, or iso's anyways.

As far as plays go they need to be testing every play before putting them in the game. It's great to have all the plays they have in the game, but not if they don't all work. I tell my players that 4 guys can run a play right but it only takes 1 not knowing what he's doing to make us all look bad and ruin our offense or defense. Its the same thing with 2k with having 10 plays at least broke per team means that when playing the cpu you get taken out of the immersion of being in a basketball game numerous times throughout a game when the cpu calls these plays. Some plays even have terrible spacing as well. Also, NBA plays don't last 20 seconds to run. They run quick hitting plays that take 8-10 seconds tops to get the look or option they want. They are fast developing as most plays start with 17-18 seconds on the shot clock. Then if play breaks down its a auto iso or PNR with auto spacing with 7-8 seconds left on the shot clock. The speed at which plays happen especially off ball need to be sped up slightly IMO.

Sorry if I rambled and got off topic... :-)

[Da_Czar]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

Great post!

Another aspect that influences spacing in a huge way is how plays are initiated currently and what happens if they break down (with default playbooks it's painful to watch).

2k really should overhaul the whole play conept. Right now, we have to step into that tiny circle which is incredibly unresponsive due to sluggish controls in general and bumping animations often preventing to even enter the circle.

Good points. However you don't have to be standing on the mark to start most plays there is a good 5-10 feet of leeway for almost all plays and for the others the system doesn't care where the ball is when it starts the plays.

Most times if a play is delayed or your on the spot and nothing happens is because the "other" guys who need to be in position for a play to begin are simply not there. If you loosen this too much then the plays won't look like plays because players can be anywhere and it throws the timing of the plays off when that happens.

The restriction to stand on the specific spot was done away with in 2k12 I believe and has loosened every year. This also causes issues sometimes because if your standing in the middle of the floor and the screen is set at the right angle your too far inside to even use the screen. However you guys wanted it looser so I asked them to make it looser even at the expense of a user getting himself out of position to make a play useful.

In some double screen plays I am surprised you guys haven't noticed that the screens come to where ever you are when you call the play. If your close they are close and if your far they are far. If your offcenter the screens still come to you unless your super far on the right or left side.

High post plays are a whole diff story. Those plays have a delay because the AI will not make that pass unless the guy at the high post is posted up. That takes time and if the pass step happens to fast you will never see them run that. I took that feedback from Vann I believe from 2k12 and had them put in a delay on the pass for the AI so that you guys would see more of those run.

As I often try to relate to you guys fixes introduce other issues sometimes. In this instance if your the user that pass step is still delayed. I know it sucks but the issue the community had was the high post option never being used by the AI. Reason is that pass was looking covered.

Just a little insight on a few things you guys have touched on. Great ideas and thoughts in hear and as always I am always listening and when appropriate sharing with the Dev's where they might make meaningful change.

FYI issues with plays are not always a play system thing. Sometimes it is how well or not well that system works with other systems of which there are many. So fixes in some instances are never as easy as they may seem.

[Da_Czar]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

to me the whole zone defense spacing issue pisses me off more than people doing spin layups and up and unders every play. mainly because you literally cannot play an online game without playing a zone. when have you ever seen Ray Allen standing wide open in the corner and get blocked by a PF that was standing in the paint when the pass was thrown to him?

it's such an obvious issue, I don't know how this keeps happening every year.

YES for the love of God YES my brother!!!!!

[svit]

Re: 2K13's spacing : It's an issue.

Just to add a little contribution to many great posts in this thread.

What should 2k do for 2k14:

1.) Make bigger court. Zone cheese will be far less effective if there are more room and bigger space to cover.

2.) Get rid of "auto cutting" from player in corners. Player should only execute cut if there are not many (or none) defenders in the paint (right now it's random)

3.) Get rid of auto lead pass (i suspect command queeing). How many times you passed to a teammate, who suddenly changed direction or goes from still position into movement? Player should only move, if there is prior movement (like running on fast break) or you manually perform lead pass (trough icon pass).

4.) When executing a play, the play should't break if opponent is switching from man-to-man to zone defense. The play also shouldn't break if opponent is out of defense position (e.g. he is trying to double player with the ball or he's reaching). There are situation when opponent plays better defense if he is constantly out of position + zone defense + double team. In such situations your teammate goes berserk and they are brainlessly running in offense (e.g. cutting to the basket, setting screens on player with the ball...)

5.) Make player movement around the screen more fluent and faster. It breaks my heart when I call play AI Triple (Allen Iverson Triple) in which player runs by 3 consecutive screens from one side of the court to the other side, only to see bumping and sliding and changing directions, slow zig-zag movements. Offensive player should be passing screens fast and in straight line.

6.) Player who set a screen should set a screen on time and on right spot. It's unacceptable to see player setting a screen off time and off space. It ruins some great plays in playbook.

7.) Last thing: make pass faster than player movement.


I hope 2k14 will address these issues (and many other -> Online Association).