Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

[magicman32]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Does fatigue play a role in shot success or does it stay the same throughout the whole game?

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Does clutch ability factor into the sweet spot (or shot success for CPU) at the end of the game, or is it the same across the board? Basically, is there a clutch rating and what is its effect?

User control over shot success lets you possibly hit that game winner with Rondo, but the basketball strategy element of being able to get a look for Ray Allen or Pierce in that situation should also be rewarded by not just the fact that they are better shooters, but also that they come through at the end of games. Multiple times as a Celtic, I know Ray Allen has been awful shooting all game and then steps up and hits the game winner. I know the game doesn't do hot & cold streaks (preferring to leave that to the player's skill) but clutch factor should boost or shrink the sweet spot ever so slightly.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

if this was live 11 in action.....???

i do have a question. Will all ratings be able to be edited again globally or just a selected few as it was in live 10?

thx

not at work at the moment so I can't say for sure, but I don't THINK so. I believe they did add numbers beside sliders so you can see what the actual value is...

1) Does handedness matter for success? If i'm Brandon Jennings, and I prefer to finish left, is the sweet spot larger for left handed finishes? Is it smaller for right handed players?

2) What about DNA percentages for success? Do those tie into sweet spot size for specific situations? If a player who likes to drive left and goto the basket instead drives right and pulls up, is that sweet spot going to reflect a tough shot not because its generally tough but because it isn't what that player is skilled at?

1) Nope - I really like this idea though, I'll bring it up as a talking point for next year.
2) DNA is still factored in to shot success, but less so than last year. Other than your basic shot rating from a place on the floor, the major contributing factors are guardedness level and your momentum (ie a fade away three IS tougher than a straight up jumper). Another factor that we discussed but didn't end up implementing was factoring in the DNA for catch & shoot vs off the dribble shooters.

Does fatigue play a role in shot success or does it stay the same throughout the whole game?

Not at the moment no. There's been discussion about this, but as it stands the inverse is true, the more you shoot, the more fatigued you get.

Does clutch ability factor into the sweet spot (or shot success for CPU) at the end of the game, or is it the same across the board? Basically, is there a clutch rating and what is its effect?

User control over shot success lets you possibly hit that game winner with Rondo, but the basketball strategy element of being able to get a look for Ray Allen or Pierce in that situation should also be rewarded by not just the fact that they are better shooters, but also that they come through at the end of games. Multiple times as a Celtic, I know Ray Allen has been awful shooting all game and then steps up and hits the game winner. I know the game doesn't do hot & cold streaks (preferring to leave that to the player's skill) but clutch factor should boost or shrink the sweet spot ever so slightly.

I like this idea and totally understand what you're saying, but the problem with implementing this is when playing against it, unless you knew it was there and when it was happening, it would be percieved as catch up logic which people already think we put in (but don't).

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Does fatigue play a role in shot success or does it stay the same throughout the whole game?

If yoru striving for realism there's no way a guy who has just logged 40+ minutes shouldn't be effected by fatigue

I mean seriously teams try to make star players work on both ends of the floor so that later in the game fatigue would impact their shots or their legs.

Come on EA if a guy is playing in Elite and the game goes to double OT your telling me all players will still shoot the same as they did in the 1st qtr

[FearlessKaz]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I figured this was worthy of being posted again in a more appropriate thread.

REAL AI and how it applys to players:

It's a tiered system - there is a set that everyone can choose from, a smaller set for each player category (eg power post players vs perimeter slashers), and then there's a third set for guys with distinctive styles (mostly allstar types). This applies to all moves that can be performed in the game (dribble moves, post game, gathers and layups). The only thing not capture by the system is passing.

[fatleg3]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

If yoru striving for realism there's no way a guy who has just logged 40+ minutes shouldn't be effected by fatigue

I mean seriously teams try to make star players work on both ends of the floor so that later in the game fatigue would impact their shots or their legs.

Come on EA if a guy is playing in Elite and the game goes to double OT your telling me all players will still shoot the same as they did in the 1st qtr

you do know this is not in any basketball game now right?

[Jano]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

you do know this is not in any basketball game now right?

Lol it was in both Live and 2K10 last year. I remember a lot of times in Live where I would brick shot after shot with fatigued players.

[fatleg3]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Lol it was in both Live and 2K10 last year. I remember a lot of times in Live where I would brick shot after shot with fatigued players.

I thought that had something to do with ai are something. Like when i would be hot the whole game then all of later in the game my player and i mean all of them just went cold and the cpu wouldn't miss anything. Even players coming off the bench would miss everything

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

If yoru striving for realism there's no way a guy who has just logged 40+ minutes shouldn't be effected by fatigue

I mean seriously teams try to make star players work on both ends of the floor so that later in the game fatigue would impact their shots or their legs.

Come on EA if a guy is playing in Elite and the game goes to double OT your telling me all players will still shoot the same as they did in the 1st qtr

I actually brought up what you're talking about with a producer that doesn't work at EA any more as a means of addressing the Mo Williams exploit from last year for the patch. His argument against it was you just can't account for guys shot percentages based on fatigue, especially superstars who heat up in the fourth quarter when they should be the most tired.

Also if we're having a discussion please don't refer to me as EA...stepsix or even Fraser is what I usually go by.

On a lighter note, we will be starting discussion for improvements for next year soon...there's a lot of good thoughts and ideas I've seen so far (eg Tha_Kid suggesting differing levels of difficulty for right handed guys finishing left on lay ups) - lord knows I miss things and we're far from complete on the AI side. I'm wondering if we can start a new sticky on thoughts for improvement with in the AI? By AI I'm referring to cpu strategy, teammate support, double teams and rotation, rating usage, slider impact etc.

i've been reading this site since Live '08 but was only able to start posting this year...normally programmers aren't given permission to interact with the consumers (usually done by community managers), but I really wanted to get direct feedback and discussion. I hate hearing some of the good ideas you guys have at the end of the year just before we ship and having to say 'maybe next year'...once the demo drops I want to hear frustrations and ideas so that we can discuss and address them.

[Jano]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

@stepsix so fatigue wasn't factored into shots last year? Because when I turned up the fatigue slider I noticed players would start missing more in traffic layups and jumpers.

I don't know how it effected the AI but I could definitely feel a drop in the level of play when it came to my players.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

@stepsix so fatigue wasn't factored into shots last year? Because when I turned up the fatigue slider I noticed players would start missing more in traffic layups and jumpers.

I don't know how it effected the AI but I could definitely feel a drop in the level of play when it came to my players.

It was there, just factored in at a very small fraction of the overall shot calculation.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

LOL!

The CPU can't even execute a simple alley oop play.....they haven't dunked on a alley oop since Live 06

They don't go between the legs and they don't do anything on the court that shows flair to their game.

I've still yet to see anyone show me a video of the CPU breaking them down off the dribble or doing a signature move that makes you jump out of your seat.

To be quite frank the CPU is flat out BORING because they are generic in everything they do on the floor. They don't cheese because they have no style to their game. I keep hearing how controls is top notch but not one EA rep mentions the CPU doesn't utilize those controls. It is strictly for the human player only. That is why i could less about TOTAL CONTROL....if it doesn't do a damn thing for the CPU then it's worthless to me.

I'd rather have animations that bring the CPU to life for once....In 5 years I've never felt afraid to over play the passing lanes because the CPU will never go back door on me and complete a dunk even if I leave his man wide open.

If EA wants to make me excited about Elite 11 show me just one time where Roddy Buckets elevates and dunks on a set play on his own.....5 years and we've never had that type of AI intelligence in Live/Elite.

How can you continue to create a basketball game where your CPU can't execute basic basketball plays.....all they ever do is pop out high off a screen and shoot a jumper. Dump it down low to the big man and let him shoot regardless if it's Shaq or D.Diop. He never makes any real low post moves, he never uses any footwork to get me up in the air.

Every year i see videos of human vs human play....every year i see a CPU AI that is lethargic on the floor in every way possible. They don't even dive on the floor for loose balls and yet we are calling this basketball. It amazes me how the PG's every year can be aggressive in their shooting yet when it comes to handling the rock they are as conservative as a middle school kid on the floor.

Can you imagine a game with George Gervin and he doesn't use his trade mark finger roll or how about a game with Patrick Ewing and he never once uses a jump hook on you. That is what I see in Live/Elite a bare bones game that markets all these great things each and every year. Yet the gameplay is so generic it's depressing at times.

Kinda weird how they'll take their NBA Jam games and make the CPU pull off moves but in NBA Live/Elite the only thing flashy you see in the CPU is them dunking from the FT line like they were shot out of a cannon................

Shouldn't this diatribe be in the one video with cpu footage in it?

To be honest I'm glad you feel this way because wrt how the cpu uses the arsenal available to a user I've always felt this is something we could do much better...as a matter of fact I remember your comments after 10 was released and I tended to agree with you. When I proposed we pull Real AI over at the beginning of this year it was after the feedback and sometimes watching the ball handler just stand there unless his defender left him wide open. The feature almost didn't make it through given the crazy amount of work required to get Elite out of the door, but I made a passionate appeal because in the end I agree that in the past the cpu was far too clinical in its execution.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB7j...ayer_embedded#!
Please have a look at that video, at Durant at around the 2:00 mark...that is the sort of thing that I was hoping to achieve with the feature. There are player specific sequences, 'archetype' specific sequences, as well as special case stuff like pick 'n roll, escape dribbles etc.

At around the 2:30 mark Westbrook gets Nov out of position (by using some dribble moves)& drives, but instead of finishing kicks it out when he sees the double for the open look. Admittedly Nov's d was a little suspect there but he'd been putting in some long hours at that point

At 3:35 Durant does an inside out, gets Nov again and drives (finish is not the nicest, but my point being for the first time ever in the next gen Live/Elite series the cpu is actually looking to beat you off of the dribble instead of just running a quick play).

I was wondering too if you had a look at the cpu behaviour in video posted and had any thoughts...I get what you're saying about the lack of finesse in previous iterations, but your comment about not beating anyone off the dribble I feel is addressed this year.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I figured this was worthy of being posted again in a more appropriate thread.

REAL AI and how it applys to players:

Thanks man - I spent a good amount of time on this over the year and I'm hoping you guys see the difference. I'm also looking for suggestions on how to improve once you play against the AI in the demo / retail.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

i have RE-watched the videos here and hunted down a few more TONIGHT and from what i see the cpu is soft.

i know programming is hard i remember doing c++ a couple yrs back but its the small things that can help the cpu out:

Da basics:

they never pumpfake
do a jab step and blow by off of it
pump fake then enter the post up
an in and out dribble
a crossover
pumpfake jab step then blow by
crossover to jumper
2 jabmoves then a pull up
a pump fake then pass it

these are few and they can be combined to produce individuality, you guys have nailed the pick & roll, off ball screen aspects but as individuals this game remains verrryyyyyyyy BORING.

real AI is promising but what about the backups, the garbage men in the league they need love too in terms of individuality.

as it stands the cpu acts as if its a shoot around, they dont feel like they are being guarded ever.

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

i have RE-watched the videos here and hunted down a few more TONIGHT and from what i see the cpu is soft.

i know programming is hard i remember doing c++ a couple yrs back but its the small things that can help the cpu out:

Da basics:

they never pumpfake
do a jab step and blow by off of it
pump fake then enter the post up
an in and out dribble
a crossover
pumpfake jab step then blow by
crossover to jumper
2 jabmoves then a pull up
a pump fake then pass it

these are few and they can be combined to produce individuality, you guys have nailed the pick & roll, off ball screen aspects but as individuals this game remains verrryyyyyyyy BORING.

real AI is promising but what about the backups, the garbage men in the league they need love too in terms of individuality.

as it stands the cpu acts as if its a shoot around, they dont feel like they are being guarded ever.

I think there is a small group of people here that have expressed concern about this issue every year.

I mean everyone is complaining about controls, arena's, 3 year plans and gear LOL!

I'm only concerned with how the CPU plays the game of basketball. We've been down that road about basic plays. Yes they run the basic stuff but they've always run the basic stuff.

What they've never done is exactly the things you posted.....

They have no life to their game on the floor.....that's why i've said on several occasions i could care less about total control if canned animations made the CPU look like basketball players on the floor.

I never was a big fan of that other game and only started playing it the last 2 years. The only reason why even play it is because their AI/CPU is a breath of fresh air on the floor. Half the time i don't even know what i'm doing with there's controls and don't care because AI keeps the games exciting to me on the floor.

I think these guys at EA know we are talking about and i understand they can't fix everything but it's been a long time since we've had a CPU react on the floor in ways that you see the Human player utilizing moves and things.

I don't care if guys jump out the gym or shoot 60% from the FG those things IMO can be fixed with sliders or player edits. What i've never been able to fix is the behavior of the CPU players on the floor. I can't make them execute alley oop's right and i can't make them do things that look like real basketball players with life on the floor.

EA can do it but for years it's just seems like they refuse to do it....

They always focus on other things and never truly observe the CPU and how they act on the floor. Seems like the game is always built to cater to USER VS USER play. Some of us would love to enjoy offline franchise modes but like you said the CPU is always boring and after 1 month you've seen it all year after year. I thought DNA/Synergy was going to finally make this happen but those things have nothing to do with CPU behavior on the floor they only dictate percentages and stats.

Sometimes i wish they would just go back to the days where Live had players labled as high flyers, flashy passers or lock down defenders (Live 06). Those players had substance/flair on the court. I remember the days when Antoine Walker used to do the shimmy on the court LOL!