Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I think there is a small group of people here that have expressed concern about this issue every year.

I mean everyone is complaining about controls, arena's, 3 year plans and gear LOL!

I'm only concerned with how the CPU plays the game of basketball. We've been down that road about basic plays. Yes they run the basic stuff but they've always run the basic stuff.

What they've never done is exactly the things you posted.....

They have no life to their game on the floor.....that's why i've said on several occasions i could care less about total control if canned animations made the CPU look like basketball players on the floor.

I never was a big fan of that other game and only started playing it the last 2 years. The only reason why even play it is because their AI/CPU is a breath of fresh air on the floor. Half the time i don't even know what i'm doing with there's controls and don't care because AI keeps the games exciting to me on the floor.

I think these guys at EA know we are talking about and i understand they can't fix everything but it's been a long time since we've had a CPU react on the floor in ways that you see the Human player utilizing moves and things.

I don't care if guys jump out the gym or shoot 60% from the FG those things IMO can be fixed with sliders or player edits. What i've never been able to fix is the behavior of the CPU players on the floor. I can't make them execute alley oop's right and i can't make them do things that look like real basketball players with life on the floor.

EA can do it but for years it's just seems like they refuse to do it....

They always focus on other things and never truly observe the CPU and how they act on the floor. Seems like the game is always built to cater to USER VS USER play. Some of us would love to enjoy offline franchise modes but like you said the CPU is always boring and after 1 month you've seen it all year after year. I thought DNA/Synergy was going to finally make this happen but those things have nothing to do with CPU behavior on the floor they only dictate percentages and stats.

Sometimes i wish they would just go back to the days where Live had players labled as high flyers, flashy passers or lock down defenders (Live 06). Those players had substance/flair on the court. I remember the days when Antoine Walker used to do the shimmy on the court LOL!

I feel like I'm talking to myself here...Did you read my post above? I agreed with your sentiment but requested some feedback. Please have a look!

CarnivalNirvana - not sure what videos you're referring to (there's only one cpu 5v5 video that I'm aware of), but in the one I referenced with specific times, you see plenty of crossovers, a couple inside out dribbles, and a couple spins. I didn't see any in the video but yes the cpu does pump fake, it throws it into combos like pump fake -> jab -> shoot, pump fake -> jab -> drive. I think you also see an example of crossover -> backdown which is one of my personal favs.

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I feel like I'm talking to myself here...Did you read my post above? I agreed with your sentiment but requested some feedback. Please have a look!

CarnivalNirvana - not sure what videos you're referring to (there's only one cpu 5v5 video that I'm aware of), but in the one I referenced with specific times, you see plenty of crossovers, a couple inside out dribbles, and a couple spins. I didn't see any in the video but yes the cpu does pump fake, it throws it into combos like pump fake -> jab -> shoot, pump fake -> jab -> drive. I think you also see an example of crossover -> backdown which is one of my personal favs.

I did look at the videos....

But you see that goes back to the animations they just don't look right stepsix....

They have no style to them at all....it just looks way too generic or robotic man.

Don't take this as shot at you or reanimator but it's been this way for years man where they do things but it looks dull and boring that's why i was agreeing with CarnivalNirvana

That's why i was agreeing with NBALIVEKING

The animations is killing this series man.....i know you guys just came aboard recently so i'm not pointing the finger at you guys. But it seems like Live/Elite for 5 years have put the animations on the lower end of the priorities and it's really making the game look terrible from a AI/CPU perspective when playing it.

I hope you guys understand our frustrations and understand you have to cater to two seperate types of basketball fans (Casual/SIM) but i just feel like EA has never really taking advantage of the XBOX 360 in terms of animations on the floor.

I know you guys have to observe that other game and you have to see the huge difference in player movement and mannerism on the floor. Like i said i've never played that other game until that last 2 years and I'm floored by how much more realistic their AI/CPU moves on the court compaired to Live/Elite players.

Even their College Game from 08 has a more realistic looking animation system IMO than Elite 11 and i don't know how that is possible from a game 3 years ago compaired to a game made this year.

[FearlessKaz]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

From watching a couple of the videos I noticed the AI players on D recognizing when an offensive player is open and lifting there arms to potentially deflect an incoming pass.

Thought that was a nice little touch. Was that something you worked on step?

[RayDog253]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Haha, the Devs can't win.

You went from wanting the Cpu to be more human like, and the Dev giving examples of this in the game. To you saying it's not pretty enough.

Lol, I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I did look at the videos....

But you see that goes back to the animations they just don't look right stepsix....

They have no style to them at all....it just looks way too generic or robotic man.

Don't take this as shot at you or reanimator but it's been this way for years man where they do things but it looks dull and boring that's why i was agreeing with CarnivalNirvana

That's why i was agreeing with NBALIVEKING

The animations is killing this series man.....i know you guys just came aboard recently so i'm not pointing the finger at you guys. But it seems like Live/Elite for 5 years have put the animations on the lower end of the priorities and it's really making the game look terrible from a AI/CPU perspective when playing it.

I hope you guys understand our frustrations and understand you have to cater to two seperate types of basketball fans (Casual/SIM) but i just feel like EA has never really taking advantage of the XBOX 360 in terms of animations on the floor.

I know you guys have to observe that other game and you have to see the huge difference in player movement and mannerism on the floor. Like i said i've never played that other game until that last 2 years and I'm floored by how much more realistic their AI/CPU moves on the court compaired to Live/Elite players.

Even their College Game from 08 has a more realistic looking animation system IMO than Elite 11 and i don't know how that is possible from a game 3 years ago compaired to a game made this year.

Ok cool appreciate the direct feedback. I've actually been on the team since '06, not always on gameplay. I'm not an animation guy, more on the strategic AI side, but I've done a couple animation features (pick 'n roll, offball movement). If you're not feeling the look of the animations this year not much I can say to that, but wrt the CPU use of what is available to it, this year it is far superior to years past.

From watching a couple of the videos I noticed the AI players on D recognizing when an offensive player is open and lifting there arms to potentially deflect an incoming pass.

Thought that was a nice little touch. Was that something you worked on step?

Again not an animation guy, but as it happens I did put that in! lol. Also added the dynamic upper body denial stance which is more subtle but you'll see when you get closer to your man offball.

Haha, the Devs can't win.

You went from wanting the Cpu to be more human like, and the Dev giving examples of this in the game. To you saying it's not pretty enough.

Lol, I'm glad I'm not in their shoes.

Hah I thought I was the only one that noticed that...am I allowed a smh?

[FearlessKaz]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

Again not an animation guy, but as it happens I did put that in! lol. Also added the dynamic upper body denial stance which is more subtle but you'll see when you get closer to your man offball.

Yeah I noticed the denial stance as well. The fact that it's all relative to what's happening on the court is pretty cool to see.

[Tomba]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

r you serious 23?

I'm kinda confused with these threads....did the dev's notify you that they will actually answer ratings and AI questions this year?

If so i have a list of questions that purtain the sliders and ratings

As do I...

I'd like to know first off if they've kept the same type of global attribute editing abilities...

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

As do I...

I'd like to know first off if they've kept the same type of global attribute editing abilities...

What's up Tomba

I think a lot of things have changed with Elite 11.....in fact i don't know if ratings matter as much since every thing has gone USER control.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

As do I...

I'd like to know first off if they've kept the same type of global attribute editing abilities...

Global editing is still available to you. We took a good look at what ratings we were actually using and how we were using them during this year so any edits you do to ratings will have a more clear and definitive effect on players.

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

@stepsix Thanks for replying to my earlier questions (even if they were all negative). My suggestions are based around the desire to see a more in depth application of "using the tools available to *insert NBA player*" on an individual level. I think that (among other things) will be crucial to retaining (or reclaiming) what most here feel constitutes a NBA Sim in 2010.

I actually brought up what you're talking about with a producer that doesn't work at EA any more as a means of addressing the Mo Williams exploit from last year for the patch. His argument against it was you just can't account for guys shot percentages based on fatigue, especially superstars who heat up in the fourth quarter when they should be the most tired.

On this topic, I think this ties back into my clutch ability suggestion, again focused on the size of the sweet spot. I think fatigue past a certain number should universally have a gradual effect on the sweet spot. You try to account for superstars through the slight boost they get from having clutch ability or combine the effect to where in the clutch, the fatigue effect is lessened due to clutch ability aka the ability to fight through fatigue, a cold streak, or pressure to deliver in the moment. Even so, even the most clutch guys like Kobe, Carmelo, Pierce have games where they didn't get their rest for that final stretch and just don't have the legs to produce down the stretch.

So we know that the more you shoot, the more you get fatigued. What effect does fatigue have on the skills? If it doesn't affect shot success, what does it affect? I think fatigue really should be detrimental across the board (speed/acceleration/rebounding/etc.) to keep a sense of realism.

I don't know how to tackle the whole catch-up logic thing, but i've heard that claim from every sports game (there was just a 2K thread about it this past week) and I think if done realistically and with available counters, sports gamers can point the finger at themselves.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

we have the demo and the issues we mentioned earlier are still present in the demo.

big men still cant back down properly and play according to their ratings, bynum is still taking 18ft jumpers off of post ups.

i saw no patience in the post game from the cpu, gasol shot early without any sizing up or reading of the defense.

the ratings are not translating into sim ball at all....

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

we have the demo and the issues we mentioned earlier are still present in the demo.

big men still cant back down properly and play according to their ratings, bynum is still taking 18ft jumpers off of post ups.

i saw no patience in the post game from the cpu, gasol shot early without any sizing up or reading of the defense.

the ratings are not translating into sim ball at all....

I don't think this game was intented for ratings to play a huge roll

I think this game was intended to be a good online experience only. I posted in the demo thread that the CPU is terrible on all levels besides Super Star level.

Ratings don't play a roll but atleast on Super Star level they put up fight in gameplay. This is the year I think you guys should just forget about editing anything because once you edit the ratings you still need the sliders to bring it to life on the floor.

Which leads me to my next complaint....there are hardly any sliders left in this game..........

There is no game speed slider so you can't really edit player speed and verticals and make the game move better on the floor. You can't really customize how the CPU plays outside of their effectiveness shooting the ball from short, medium and long.

It's just a GENERIC setup anyway you slice it.....i would just call it a day and play the game online with someone that will play SIM style ball.

Otherwise your waisting time vs the CPU even if you do massive edits to ratings because there are no sliders to complement any ratings edits

[Tha_Kid]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

OK I read stepsix's post in the demo thread. That's not good. I remember stepsix specifically saying that he went in dropped the verticals and it changed the game, so the effect of sliders would be significant. I'd be surprised if the demo sliders were all of them.

[Playmakers]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

I played the demo some more....

I have idea that can really add some excitement to this game. It's not going to play what we call SIM not matter how much editing is done this year IMO.

But i think we can tweak it to play uptempo style....instead of going against the engine i think we could work with the engine and make the game up and down style of play.

The demo still shows major issues with the fast break....but i think if that part of game can be edited to play better and you put the game on Super Star level it's longevity offline would improve.

That is what i tend to do this year turn it into a uptempo game go with the flow of game and just rely very little on halfcourt play especially the CPU. I don't think they are going to be up to par at all in halfcourt situation. But in the open floor they might not cause as many headaches if you can get them to execute in transistion like in previous versions of Live.

[stepsix]

Re: Ask the devs : AI/Ratings

OK I read stepsix's post in the demo thread. That's not good. I remember stepsix specifically saying that he went in dropped the verticals and it changed the game, so the effect of sliders would be significant. I'd be surprised if the demo sliders were all of them.

I just d/l'ed the demo - the slider set is the same as the retail game, but if you have a look at the player stats, screen, under DNA Ratings, those are the ratings available for edit, and imo the place where guys who are good with tweaks can change how the game plays quite a bit.

If there's enough people making a case for a particular adjustment I can discuss with the database guy and see if I can't get some tuning done for a ratings drop.