Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the ground

[mannyonelover]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

I wonder why anyone in EA hasn’t clarified why they took it out or kept it in ??


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[DaisukEasy]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

1) I think we fundamentally disagree on what Lawler did. I believe he was taking plenty of risks by swaying and parrying. One wrong move and he’s sleep. Sitting on the ground holding block involves no skill, no real thought.

What's there to disagree on?

He was blocking & deflecting shots while moving his head for a solid minute with zero offense in order to weather RDA's storm. Some shots landed, but he came out relatively unscathed.

The UFC equivalent is using high and low block for a solid minute and blocking a significant portion of the incoming fire. Without throwing a punch.

If the TKO requirement is "Blocking for an X amount of seconds without firing back" Lawler would've been TKO'd.

It's easy to accidentally write a rule that leads to a whole lot more TKO's than you intended just because the rule wasn't specific enough. That's the nature of programming situations that in all honesty require human judgement.

2) You can break posture in the game. And the guy on top also has limited tools which is why the tko would be important. In real life I can stick shots around/through your guard. In the game you can lay there and block everything.

That's exactly my point. The ground game lacks nuance. With the current system it's either no TKO's or overpowered TKO's.

I find it funny that Daisuke doesn’t think there is enough for the ground game to allow TKOs while blocking (which the game has built around in a few positions) but thinks there is enough tells in stand up to take meters when the game wasn’t built around that.

You can do it on the ground. But I think it would be significantly overpowered to the point where it will detract rather than add to our MMA experience.

Stand up has way more elements and control to it. I can quite easily write up a realistic, nuanced and fun mechanic for standing TKO's that would feel justified, immersive and not at all overpowered.

On the ground, not so much.

[Nugget7211]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

That's exactly my point. The ground game lacks nuance.

This is the real issue here for me, and it's exactly the same problem they had in UFC 1. It felt absolutely awful to get TKO'd or TKO someone in UFC 1 from any position other than back mount, because it looked really, really bad, where the fighter doesn't get hit during a flurry but the fight gets stopped. Like,obviously IRL blocking doesn't protect you fully (Rockhold-Weidman for example) but it does in game, so you'd feel totally safe and try to wait out a flurry and get stopped without taking damage, which is just awful, because the player has no incentive to move if they don't know the TKO system is the game and the losses will always feel like total bull****.

I basically feel the same way about this as I do about UFC 1 one-punch-ko's. They don't tell you it's possible, there's no real consistency about how or why they happen and it makes it feel awful to get one or be the victim of one.

Obviously, if they add nuance to the ground striking and the grappling in general and put TKO's back in, sweet, but putting UFC 1 TKO's back in 3 would suck IMO. Also, apologies if this is rambly or incoherent, I'm tired

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

Had a better reply but my browser sucks

As far as the Lawler situation if you’re able to alternate blocking high/low without taking damage that’s intelligent defense. On the ground just laying there holding block is not. It’s two very different scenarios.

I’ll just say adding TKO would give another element to the ground/stand up. But I dont believe it should just be thrown in.

It should factor in guard damage, and some of the ground stuff would need to be tuned especially stand ups.

Can you explain how it would be OP on the ground? One or two blocks and you’re free to transition. One reversal and you’re free. Not to mention if someone is striking you have massive GA.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

Had a better reply but my browser sucks

As far as the Lawler situation if you’re able to alternate blocking high/low without taking damage that’s intelligent defense. On the ground just laying there holding block is not. It’s two very different scenarios.

I’ll just say adding TKO would give another element to the ground/stand up. But I dont believe it should just be thrown in.

It should factor in guard damage, and some of the ground stuff would need to be tuned especially stand ups.

Can you explain how it would be OP on the ground? One or two blocks and you’re free to transition. One reversal and you’re free. Not to mention if someone is striking you have massive GA.

It wouldn't be. Currently, TKOs on the ground (in positions where they actually work) are determined by head and arm/guard health. You can't be TKOed until you've been wailed on quite a lot and have significant head damage. That way you can actually block and build GA without being destroyed. I don't even know why this is a discussion. It's been there in the game since UFC 1 and hasn't left. When the mechanic was reworked for UFC 2, no one complained about it. Hell, it looks like most of you never even knew it was there.

It's in every position but BSC/Sprawl, N/S, and the four main chest-to-chest positions. We need to add it to all of those except N/S and maybe sprawl (sprawl needs head punches). Of course, we still keep it tied to arm/guard and head health. That way you won't just be finished for only blocking. There is absolutely nothing to suggest it won't work.

[DaisukEasy]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

As far as the Lawler situation if you’re able to alternate blocking high/low without taking damage that’s intelligent defense.

What if you're just blocking high because that's where your opponent is aiming?

On the ground just laying there holding block is not. It’s two very different scenarios.

It's not. The only reason you'd even have to alternate is because your opponent can switch targets. There's just one place to aim at on the floor and I can cover that option by blocking.

Just because Lawler had to cover more options doesn't make it more intelligent, it just makes it more difficult. If little to no shots are getting through, isn't that the definition of intelligently defending yourself? If not, then intelligently defending yourself is impossible on the ground.

Can you explain how it would be OP on the ground? One or two blocks and you’re free to transition. One reversal and you’re free. Not to mention if someone is striking you have massive GA.

Get to full mount. Posture up. Only throw strikes when the person on the bottom tries to transition. When they're damaged enough. Throw single strikes at their guard as well. If done even remotely competently, they either get KO'd while transitioning, KO'd while you break their guard/TKO'd, or TKO'd for holding their guard too long. Unless they get lucky with a Jedi level read on your punch and arm trap you. But that comes with the inherent risk of getting punched for trying to transition if you guess wrong.

It's already silly enough as it is, TKOs in that scenario make it that much worse.

That doesn't mean I don't want TKO's on the ground, just that I think it'll be more of a problem than a benefit in the current system. It needs a complete reworks first.


[edit]

Wait, are you talking about the arms-flailing-because-my-guard-broke TKO's?

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

What if you're just blocking high because that's where your opponent is aiming?



It's not. The only reason you'd even have to alternate is because your opponent can switch targets. There's just one place to aim at on the floor and I can cover that option by blocking.

Just because Lawler had to cover more options doesn't make it more intelligent, it just makes it more difficult. If little to no shots are getting through, isn't that the definition of intelligently defending yourself? If not, then intelligently defending yourself is impossible on the ground.



Get to full mount. Posture up. Only throw strikes when the person on the bottom tries to transition. When they're damaged enough. Throw single strikes at their guard as well. If done even remotely competently, they either get KO'd while transitioning, KO'd while you break their guard/TKO'd, or TKO'd for holding their guard too long. Unless they get lucky with a Jedi level read on your punch and arm trap you. But that comes with the inherent risk of getting punched for trying to transition if you guess wrong.

It's already silly enough as it is, TKOs in that scenario make it that much worse.

That doesn't mean I don't want TKO's on the ground, just that I think it'll be more of a problem than a benefit in the current system. It needs a complete reworks first.


[edit]

Wait, are you talking about the arms-flailing-because-my-guard-broke TKO's?

I think I get what you’re saying now. I do believe we should have the same guard break with straight strikes vs looping ones on the ground.

As far as mount goes I dont understand how the tko changes that. If you block the strike your GA will make it so you can transition before they strike.

You can even fake a transition and then block

[tempman1000]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

I think they should add parrys when the person is i. The stun state. Parry a few strikes to survive and break out of the stun state. They already have the coding for parries, why not use it to where it could be needed

- ground parrys should only be activated when your fighter is stunned.

It gives us more freedom and a chance to escape being stunned. I could epic comebacks fights with this feature

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

I think they should add parrys when the person is i. The stun state. Parry a few strikes to survive and break out of the stun state. They already have the coding for parries, why not use it to where it could be needed

- ground parrys should only be activated when your fighter is stunned.

It gives us more freedom and a chance to escape being stunned. I could epic comebacks fights with this feature

Arm traps are basically that and it's already implemented in game when stunned on the ground.

I'd like to have that in the stand up, where it's possible to clinch up by timing a strike when stunned, but risking big by opening up your defence. But you wouldn't be able to deny the clinch since it would be like a parry or catching a kick. The clinch as it is now when stunned is barely useful, not only is it slow as heck, but can easily be denied and get yourself countered 9 times out of 10 in the recovery frames of being denied the entry clinch.

Just a thought.

[tempman1000]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

Yea but irl when your stunned its pretty difficult to arm trap. I would keep that oprion as a riskier option but reward bcuz you can possibly reverse them but a less risky reward goes with using the parry system (by pressing square and x or triangle and circle. Its sorta like a ufc undispted 3 variation with an ea ufc twist

So arm trap reversal tansition ( bigger risk major reward
And parry smaller risk smaller reward

In ea ufc the guy just sits thete and gets pounded. U cant move in the stunned state just eat those punches. So why not just add parrys (just think of ud3 but instead of sways use parrys and instead of catching the punch like in ud3 you use the armtrap)

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

When has anyone ever parried punches while rocked on the ground?

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

When has anyone ever parried punches while rocked on the ground?

Parrying a strike means deviating it from its route, so you figure one would do it when trying to break his opponent's posture and get back in a position less risky to get knocked out cold or cause a referee stoppage. So yeah, it happens a lot.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

Parrying a strike means deviating it from its route, so you figure one would do it when trying to break his opponent's posture and get back in a position less risky to get knocked out cold or cause a refere stoppage. You pretty much need to do it in the first place to get a arm trapped...

Show me an instance of someone getting pounded on the ground rocked, actively trying to parry strikes. Not putting their hands up to block causing punches to miss. Actually parrying.

I'm not trying to measure my dick here, but I have over 12 years of fighting experience. Parrying just isn't done on the ground. No one teaches it and no one does it instinctively. Arm traps are barely even a thing insofar as catching a punch and redirecting it. It happens, but not often.

More often than not, a fighter will block punches while looking for an opportunity to clinch up and use their hips/legs to stop an onslaught or stand up. They don't redirect strikes while getting rained down on. The in game arm traps are almost exclusive to video games. No one has been getting beaten down from mount and caught an arm in the middle of a punch to pull their opponent down. That would expose you to being high mounted. Fighters will buck their hips to offset them because striking can create an off balance moment. Other things they will do is sit up and hug the midsection or turn over and give their back.

Again, you do not redirect strikes to trap arms. You block, use your hips to gain a better position, and create an opportunity to clinch. Only then can you start to catch a strike. Which still rarely happens. Most will duck under the punch to grab an underhook.

I'm not rejecting a "parry-like" system of defense but, the animation has to be something realistic. Use the button to "parry", but instead of showing an animation of redirecting the punch, the fighter bucks/moves their hips and shoots an underhook or something.

[Acebaldwin]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

Is that guy for real? The moment he asked me to find a instance where someone on the ground getting punished was actively trying to deviate strikes to either get a better position, get a arm trapped or break the posture of his opponent is the moment I stopped reading.

Sorry to say you've wasted 12 years of training if you cant grasp something as remotely simple as parrying being a viable defence on the ground. But In my opinion, it's simply nonother than you not knowing the definition of what actual parrying was in the first place.

Had to stoop to your level but I have to say, feels good being a condescending prick to a condescending ahole. Do your own research for your own personal gains, it might just end up being more of help than showing you something you wouldnt even understand in the first place anyway. Or you would understand, but would still just go on and on about semantics just to try and get some validity in your stupid arguments.

[RetractedMonkey]

Re: Please bring back the UFC 1 referee stoppage when you hold block 2 long on the gr

The burden of proof is on you to provide evidence to support your arguments. I gave mine. You can’t just say outlandish things and then insinuate I’m crazy without any proof. What you did is called a cop out and ad hominem. You attempt to discredit me as a person instead of my argument.

As a side note, I never stooped to the level of hurling insults at you. I simply gave you my opinion on the validity of your arguments and your childish comments. You are now proving me right again. Nowhere in my comments here have I insulted you or said anything particularly inflammatory. This is all you carrying bad blood from a previous topic because you can’t be civil. It’s pretty sad.


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