Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

[ZHunter1990]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

How much does this change if a front and side block is implemented?

Probably quite a bit. But lets assume that front and side block isn't a possibility. Just for the sake of this thread.

[bmlimo]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

About hold the block for the entire fight... in ea ufc 1 we had stamina drain if players hold the block... in ea ufc 4 instead of stamina drain, we could just drain the block bar... make it so for people only press block if they see a strike comming

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

About hold the block for the entire fight... in ea ufc 1 we had stamina drain if players hold the block... in ea ufc 4 instead of stamina drain, we could just drain the block bar... make it so for people only press block if they see a strike comming

Some fighters fight out of a high block so no thanks to this.

[bmlimo]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Some fighters fight out of a high block so no thanks to this.

Blocking is different from stance, when a fighter is really blocking he is putting strength in his arms ... some of them like shogun and gaethje even use a high guard when blocking that they can’t see what is comming

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Blocking is different from stance, when a fighter is really blocking he is putting strength in his arms ... some of them like shogun and gaethje even use a high guard when blocking that they can’t see what is comming

I agree there should be drawbacks, I just disagreed with your overall point.

[bmlimo]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

I agree there should be drawbacks, I just disagreed with your overall point.

No problem, maybe instead of the bar drain, more bleed from block as in theory the agressor can see better were are the holes in the block and pick their shots

[WarMMA]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Your proposals are good. Idk if i'd increase stam tax on all landed clean strikes by 30%...i'd have to see how it plays out real time. Btw when you say that, are you talking overall? Like both perm/temp stamina? I also like Retracted's idea of a bigger perm tax to long combos. Would change the meta for the better imo.

[ZombieRommel]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Assuming we don't get Front & Side (as Phillyboi mentioned), I'd do the following:

• - Allow blocking while slipping
  
  
• - Slipping into a strike incurs a bleedthrough penalty
  
  
• - Slipping into a strike does roughly 1.5-2x block meter damage that the strike would normally do
  
  
• - Allow 360 degree head movement (Spider mentioned this, and I've been asking for it for a long time) as in FNC
  
  
• - 360 head movement will allow a more dynamic and analog form of slipping (the punch will track the head as if it is a beach ball, and if the ball moves in time in direction that makes sense, the punch misses). This will get rid of the "I'm rocked and if I slip wrong once I die" meta as it will allow for the head to slip into a "gray" area and take partial damage instead of everything being black and white
  
  
• - Allow increased body damage during slips to allow for body shots to be more of a hard punish to someone intent on slipping + blocking or simply whirly-birding
  
  
• - Either: Put the leg kick check on its own input
  
  
• - OR (preferably) force the player to let the left stick go neutral in order to check leg kicks. This will enforce leg kicks as a serious threat against people who use a lot of lateral movement. Right now, the game holds the player's hand by automatically stopping the fighter.

I'd test out all these changes in concert before actually changing the block break durability or nerfing stamina. I think an enhanced & less risky head movement system (360 degrees instead of 4 way) along with allowing blocking while moving the head could result in players successfully slipping more shots than they currently do, thereby draining the other player's stamina more.

By the same token, reducing or removing slip body shot mitigation could make body-hunting a more reliable means of sapping stamina against someone who is intent on moving the head.

And then, with a 1.5 to 2x multiplier on the block break for slipping incorrectly, you might not need to nerf the actual block break logic anymore.

In my head, it would go like this: Some players would take advantage of the new, more responsive analog slip + blocking system to gas aggressors. Some players would take advantage of slips no longer reducing body damage in order to hard counter the players using the new head movement. This would result in decreased stamina and therefore decreased strike output from both sides and hopefully result in a meta where both sides are thinking more about picking their shots.

And then, the block break multiplier for slipping incorrectly would stop guys from whirlybirding and help to mitigate how potentially unfair it would be for a guy who's rocked to just shell up behind his block and spin.

Recall also that in FNC, if a guy got rocked, the safest thing to do was usually to pump the block and walk backward, selectively slipping shots. Whirlybirds exposed their mid-sections and could get hammered there and dropped easily.

I would say the main tenants here are to allow slipping + blocking 360 degrees while also reducing body shot mitigation for slipping toward a strike. So you buff head movement considerably but also ensure that it can be properly hard-countered easily. Both the head movement buff and the nerf to body shot mitigation result in each player having less stamina to work with overall and having to pick their shots. Aggressive, mindless head hunting gets easily countered with slip + block. Mindless whirlybirding gets easily countered with body shots.

In a measured fight, you'd have guys popping in and out of the slip + block so as to not eat body shots, and you'd have aggressors using feints to bait head movement, either so they can land a body shot or get the multiplier on the block break.

[bmlimo]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Assuming we don't get Front & Side (as Phillyboi mentioned), I'd do the following:

• - Allow blocking while slipping
  
  
• - Slipping into a strike incurs a bleedthrough penalty
  
  
• - Slipping into a strike does roughly 1.5-2x block meter damage that the strike would normally do
  
  
• - Allow 360 degree head movement (Spider mentioned this, and I've been asking for it for a long time) as in FNC
  
  
• - 360 head movement will allow a more dynamic and analog form of slipping (the punch will track the head as if it is a beach ball, and if the ball moves in time in direction that makes sense, the punch misses). This will get rid of the "I'm rocked and if I slip wrong once I die" meta as it will allow for the head to slip into a "gray" area and take partial damage instead of everything being black and white
  
  
• - Allow increased body damage during slips to allow for body shots to be more of a hard punish to someone intent on slipping + blocking or simply whirly-birding
  
  
• - Either: Put the leg kick check on its own input
  
  
• - OR (preferably) force the player to let the left stick go neutral in order to check leg kicks. This will enforce leg kicks as a serious threat against people who use a lot of lateral movement. Right now, the game holds the player's hand by automatically stopping the fighter.

I'd test out all these changes in concert before actually changing the block break durability or nerfing stamina. I think an enhanced & less risky head movement system (360 degrees instead of 4 way) along with allowing blocking while moving the head could result in players successfully slipping more shots than they currently do, thereby draining the other player's stamina more.

By the same token, reducing or removing slip body shot mitigation could make body-hunting a more reliable means of sapping stamina against someone who is intent on moving the head.

And then, with a 1.5 to 2x multiplier on the block break for slipping incorrectly, you might not need to nerf the actual block break logic anymore.

In my head, it would go like this: Some players would take advantage of the new, more responsive analog slip + blocking system to gas aggressors. Some players would take advantage of slips no longer reducing body damage in order to hard counter the players using the new head movement. This would result in decreased stamina and therefore decreased strike output from both sides and hopefully result in a meta where both sides are thinking more about picking their shots.

And then, the block break multiplier for slipping incorrectly would stop guys from whirlybirding and help to mitigate how potentially unfair it would be for a guy who's rocked to just shell up behind his block and spin.

Recall also that in FNC, if a guy got rocked, the safest thing to do was usually to pump the block and walk backward, selectively slipping shots. Whirlybirds exposed their mid-sections and could get hammered there and dropped easily.

I would say the main tenants here are to allow slipping + blocking 360 degrees while also reducing body shot mitigation for slipping toward a strike. So you buff head movement considerably but also ensure that it can be properly hard-countered easily. Both the head movement buff and the nerf to body shot mitigation result in each player having less stamina to work with overall and having to pick their shots. Aggressive, mindless head hunting gets easily countered with slip + block. Mindless whirlybirding gets easily countered with body shots.

In a measured fight, you'd have guys popping in and out of the slip + block so as to not eat body shots, and you'd have aggressors using feints to bait head movement, either so they can land a body shot or get the multiplier on the block break.

Would be welcome fun 360 headmovement, but about the block I’m still with retracted and zhunter, u changes are more gamey than their ... don’t take that as an insult I understand that u are just taking care of the meta

[1212headkick]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

?

Body strikes are underutilized in real life

Why not make it so that block in general is weaker instead of buffing body strikes?

If you don’t give folks a reason to not block their head they will camp high block. It’s also why opponents can strike and strike and strike and throw 200 strikes a round and have full stamina. I’m asking to buff forward moving body shots so that you can’t be punished with a rolling thunder or spin kick etc

[Phillyboi207]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

If you don’t give folks a reason to not block their head they will camp high block. It’s also why opponents can strike and strike and strike and throw 200 strikes a round and have full stamina. I’m asking to buff forward moving body shots so that you can’t be punished with a rolling thunder or spin kick etc

That’s why we’re discussing weakening the block to “give folks a reason to not block their head”.

Take a step back man. You’re so intent upon pushing a particular style that you’re disagreeing with what you’ve been fighting for this entire time. We’re discussings ways to make block more realistic while maintaining competitive balance.

[1212headkick]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

No I do agree with these changes. I don’t agree that body hooks should remain as they are

[Lauriedr1ver]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Oh know, 360° headmovement was mentioned!!!! Remeber the old thread.

[SMOKEZERO]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Real changes have to happen with movement before implementing blocking changes. I have a hard time even engaging in numbers surrounding stamina tax, block strength etc., until something is done to simplify and increase the speed and effectiveness of footwork and dynamic movement both offensively, and defensively. Footwork, parrying, blocking, head movement while all independent abilities of defense, should be able to be easily layered together for the player. It’s basically choose one at a time in UFC 3 and block is the default choice, simply because it’s the easiest and least risky. Movement is honestly terrible and a step back from UFC 2 which wasn’t great either. Distance management should be a fast dangerous meta game during the fight that is easy to perform only limited by your fighters stats. The diversity should be pretty wide if executed correctly. Defensively, head movement is a blind gamble but it really shines off reads. Something off feeling with head movement I feel happened when the minor motions were introduced. The fact all players have the same range here is ridiculous. Parrying, I would love to see return in some revamped fashion. To summarize, defensively start with the feet then add the hands. Right now we’ve got the footwork of Lieutenant Dan, so who f’n cares.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

[HereticFighter]

Re: Block suggestions and rebalancing discussion

Real changes have to happen with movement before implementing blocking changes. I have a hard time even engaging in numbers surrounding stamina tax, block strength etc., until something is done to simplify and increase the speed and effectiveness of footwork and dynamic movement both offensively, and defensively. Footwork, parrying, blocking, head movement while all independent abilities of defense, should be able to be easily layered together for the player. It’s basically choose one at a time in UFC 3 and block is the default choice, simply because it’s the easiest and least risky. Movement is honestly terrible and a step back from UFC 2 which wasn’t great either. Distance management should be a fast dangerous meta game during the fight that is easy to perform only limited by your fighters stats. The diversity should be pretty wide if executed correctly. Defensively, head movement is a blind gamble but it really shines off reads. Something off feeling with head movement I feel happened when the minor motions were introduced. The fact all players have the same range here is ridiculous. Parrying, I would love to see return in some revamped fashion. To summarize, defensively start with the feet then add the hands. Right now we’ve got the footwork of Lieutenant Dan, so who f’n cares.


Sent from my iPhone using Operation Sports

I have to agree with the sentiment here mostly. You guys are talking about elaborate block changes when what we really need is a ton of bug fixes and engine refinement.



Number 1 thing: the game is quite buggy. This affects head-movement, lunging, everything. You guys want to weaken block, but the head-movement options just don't work properly. Ducking a hook seems exceedingly difficult even with what seems like perfect timing unless you are very short, back lean eats uppers and hooks way too much. Lunge a knee and it hits your head. Collision detection is just horrendous. Half my replays just look so stupid because the shots just don't land clean but do anyways. Duck an overhand? KO! slip a straight? still eat a hook before you can even block or counter unless you whirlybird.


Remove the auto aim on headmovement. Want people to take more risks and rely on block less? make other forms of defense work better. Every movement puts you at maximum vulnerability for something, which is fine but a slight timing delay (online lag etc) and you just get auto-aimed to death.



Also, body kick block, ok seriously why is it so unreliable? I don't get it... You can block 1/3 of the way into the animation and still eat it if you blocked a jab.



You guys get into it with 1212 but he's right about body shots, they are just not right. They have no proper acceleration on them, they are too slow and have improper range. However this leads to another problem, body punches, because of the incorrect range put you at duck vulnerability but yet seem to have very little evasion properties for head strikes. Point blank jabs will stop you in your tracks.



What can be done on this current game to balance it, only a few things that I can see this late in the cycle.



1. Currently whiffed strikes take literally 2.5 times the long term stamina of a landed strike. Thats insane and punishes range fighting. Its also not realistic. I honestly think the 30% isn't ridiculous as an increase on landed/blocked shots given the current damage, however whiffs should take about 1.25x-1.5 the long term stamina of a landed strike not 2.5x. Based on the current stamina model that would make them approx. 1.6-1.9x stamina drain of a landed shot now if a 30% flat stamina tax increase was implemented.



2. Restore the forward moving body punch speed but not the range it had early on. Only a few strikes (stationary) are the right speed, and most have so much startup and recovery frames.



3. Reduce the block breaking ability of jabs only, jab spam is ridiculously effective, and easily forces headmovement, but doesn't force level changes or intelligent mixup, Usually just, jab jab, jab hook, jab upper, jab jab straight, jab hook hook. Given that moving your head based on reactions in this game simply results in your block dropping and eating a shot, it feels like a gamble, instead of skill. It also means empty slips and wasted stamina trying to guess rather than react.



4. Ease up on recovery frames. Everything stuns you for so long. Just do a little flick of the joystick up for a minor lunge and then queue up a body kick, its like you stand there for a full second before anything happens.

5. reduce stamina tax on all movement except whirlybirds.

Other than that we need a TON of bug fixes and collision fixes.



Honestly I said it when the game came out and I still feel the same, as long as we aren't using physics as a model, we will never approach balanced or realistic. How could we? Sit down and just watch a fight objectively, this game looks weird. Nothing looks like it has the right impact/weight or speed. We can get it balanced in the next game but its based on too many "rules" and nonsense instead of creating realistic interactions.



Even GPD's videos/gifs he posted a couple weeks ago in relation to the head-movement changes highlight the issues easily.



In his example, kick 1 lands clean to the head, shin to the side of the head, wrapping around and the foot hitting the back of the head. IRL this would be nasty, perfect head kick. Game registers 20 damage. GIF 2, defending player leans back, the toes hit the chin instead of the shin. 30 damage.... WTF.... BUT the rules state that you leaned back and he throws head kick so 30 damage....



Then we have all the problems with vulnerabilities... no physics, no realism. i could go on all day about that alone.