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Old 12-28-2013, 01:01 PM   #1
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Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

Has anyone seen a broken tackle animation NG, EVER??!! This is totally killing me. I've seen very few broken tackles after a few weeks of playing. I've been tinkering with the tackling slider on both sides of the ball as I would actually like to see both hum and CPU broken tackles. I've down to 30, and have seen a few, but it still doesn't feel right and I'm not seeing them when I think I should. And, at 30, no matter what the run blocking is set to, the edge runs are ridiculous. It feels like the tackling slider controls run blocking/blockshed/broken tackles/CPU RB intelligence all at the same time and sadly, there is no happy medium. I would like to see some trucks and stiff arms, but I'm guessing I've got to go to tackling at 10 for that?! And, if I do, I'm sure I'll see another lynch game where he runs for 350 yds on me, not because of beast mode, but because with tackling low, my players never get anywhere near him because they are blocked off the field! Lol. Anyone found some sort of happy medium for tackling/blocking? I have a bad feeling there isn't one. For all the bashing ea takes, this is another spot. If you're going to create sliders with names like tackling and run blocking, it would be nice if that's actually what they controlled instead of blockshed and distance from ball carrier. Ugghhhh, getting frustrated with ea again.


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Old 12-28-2013, 03:39 PM   #2
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

Seems penalty sliders still effect events in the game. I am just unclear on the specifics on what was being effected, by which sliders, and to what degree...

If EA/Tiburon knows all these details they should produce a tutorial on them so we can understand the game better..

I cannot help but consider that EA/Tiburon never touches sliders, but any perceived change in how a slider effects game play are due to other changes in code that just happens to be interconnected with sliders.

I also believe, EA/Tiburon has no clue what any slider does, nor how they are connected and rely on other factors...

I did read an article that was explaining the science of QB ratings and it was stated that, "Aaron Rodgers has a deep accuracy rating of 87, which means that 87% of Rodgers’ deep throws are on target." This leads me to believe that all ratings are on a "percent" basis out of 100...Sliders then would be - 50 is the center or "zero" point of ratings adjustments(fine tuning); thus raising or lowering a slider will increase or decrease particular ratings by the percent changed - thus moving a slider 25 points to the left will lower connected ratings by 25%; BUT, maybe that 25% is not calculated on the full player rating(s) connected, but based on an equation such as - take QB Rodgers 87 deep accuracy rating - if you lowered QB accuracy slider by 25 maybe the formula works something like (87-50*25%= adjusted QB deep accuracy)? I picked 50 because the majority of attributes that are relevant are over 50 and to apply a 25% modifier to the real rating number would show a grand variation to player actions on field; thus I feel the calculation changes are based on smaller numbers....With QB Rodgers slider adjustment as shown above, his post slider Deep Accuracy rating would be 87 - 9.25= 77.75, I assume the total would be truncated, so 78...

Of course the other issue would be, how exactly are ratings measured in madden and how are they interconnected? seems even a QB accuracy of 70 is still rather accurate...but is that because the accuracy calculations are overpowered or because defensive coverage and reactions are under powered? My theory is to raise defensive coverage sliders and reaction time sliders...I so far feel that raising the coverage slider more than the reaction time slider allows with better zone and m2m cover without having defender jump routes...I can tell teh difference be watching how well the Browns' Joe Haden covers compared to the Browns' CB Buster Skrine covers...Skrine is m2m rating in the low 70's? while Haden m2m is 98...Haden is on everyone...Skrine gets beat and is also thrown against more; at least in my trials...

anyway - I am rambling - I am still trying to figure this all out...Seems though, all is based on a 100 scale; 50 is EA/Tiburons "zero" slider setting, meaning no adjustments outside whatever is added to ratings due to the actual level itself (as it appears, each level category you are in, all-madden, all-pro, pro, and rookie, have a base adjustment to rating for that skill level, and then adjusting sliders within that skill level fine tunes the base adjustments.) so in all-madden, for example, the skill range is 0-25, or no more than 75 points per each skill set, etc..but that theory has been explained in detail by others on OS and to more detail than I could explain right here...

I do feel that the all-madden and rookie settings are the extremes and allow for more so called cheating by the AI, but the range between all-pro and pro are more the normal range for getting the best animations are variations in game...So sliders running between 26 and 74(75) are the better overall range to keep sliders...My opinion ONLY...

Last edited by 4thQtrStre5S; 12-28-2013 at 03:42 PM.
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Old 12-28-2013, 04:28 PM   #3
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4thQtrStre5S
Seems penalty sliders still effect events in the game. I am just unclear on the specifics on what was being effected, by which sliders, and to what degree...

If EA/Tiburon knows all these details they should produce a tutorial on them so we can understand the game better..

I cannot help but consider that EA/Tiburon never touches sliders, but any perceived change in how a slider effects game play are due to other changes in code that just happens to be interconnected with sliders.

I also believe, EA/Tiburon has no clue what any slider does, nor how they are connected and rely on other factors...

I did read an article that was explaining the science of QB ratings and it was stated that, "Aaron Rodgers has a deep accuracy rating of 87, which means that 87% of Rodgers’ deep throws are on target." This leads me to believe that all ratings are on a "percent" basis out of 100...Sliders then would be - 50 is the center or "zero" point of ratings adjustments(fine tuning); thus raising or lowering a slider will increase or decrease particular ratings by the percent changed - thus moving a slider 25 points to the left will lower connected ratings by 25%; BUT, maybe that 25% is not calculated on the full player rating(s) connected, but based on an equation such as - take QB Rodgers 87 deep accuracy rating - if you lowered QB accuracy slider by 25 maybe the formula works something like (87-50*25%= adjusted QB deep accuracy)? I picked 50 because the majority of attributes that are relevant are over 50 and to apply a 25% modifier to the real rating number would show a grand variation to player actions on field; thus I feel the calculation changes are based on smaller numbers....With QB Rodgers slider adjustment as shown above, his post slider Deep Accuracy rating would be 87 - 9.25= 77.75, I assume the total would be truncated, so 78...

Of course the other issue would be, how exactly are ratings measured in madden and how are they interconnected? seems even a QB accuracy of 70 is still rather accurate...but is that because the accuracy calculations are overpowered or because defensive coverage and reactions are under powered? My theory is to raise defensive coverage sliders and reaction time sliders...I so far feel that raising the coverage slider more than the reaction time slider allows with better zone and m2m cover without having defender jump routes...I can tell teh difference be watching how well the Browns' Joe Haden covers compared to the Browns' CB Buster Skrine covers...Skrine is m2m rating in the low 70's? while Haden m2m is 98...Haden is on everyone...Skrine gets beat and is also thrown against more; at least in my trials...

anyway - I am rambling - I am still trying to figure this all out...Seems though, all is based on a 100 scale; 50 is EA/Tiburons "zero" slider setting, meaning no adjustments outside whatever is added to ratings due to the actual level itself (as it appears, each level category you are in, all-madden, all-pro, pro, and rookie, have a base adjustment to rating for that skill level, and then adjusting sliders within that skill level fine tunes the base adjustments.) so in all-madden, for example, the skill range is 0-25, or no more than 75 points per each skill set, etc..but that theory has been explained in detail by others on OS and to more detail than I could explain right here...

I do feel that the all-madden and rookie settings are the extremes and allow for more so called cheating by the AI, but the range between all-pro and pro are more the normal range for getting the best animations are variations in game...So sliders running between 26 and 74(75) are the better overall range to keep sliders...My opinion ONLY...

Lol, man. Lol, for real. Haha, I agree with everything u said there. I would LOVE to have a tutorial for sliders. And, legitimately, I wouldn't be AS mad at madden for not producing an out of the box actual game of football (although, I still believe this SHOULD be their goal. Lol), if they would let me know EXACTLY what the sliders control. What exact aspects. I love your calculation theory and have always assumed something like this, but even if it were that simple, something is always missing from how ea codes this game. An example of this is QB ACC. It would be great if I lowered ACC because I thought the QBs were too much on target and should be a little more errant. So, I lower QB ACC. What happens? Strangely, the QB still throws the ball in the exact same place. Same trajectory, same target spot, same spiral, release, timing, etc. But, NOW the WR simply drops it?? Or, suddenly, the defense has better coverage?? So, now, it's just harder to fit the ball in there?? Yeah, those are the things that are cheesing me off right now. Because they can't/won't/don't try to implement a 'true' physics engine (well, they did last year which I applauded, but this year feels much less organic), instead of the QB ACC slider simply altering the trajectory of each pass by a few inches, they make the WR drop the ball, or run his route out of bounds. Yeah, madden sliders are silly business for sure. I'm messing with the blocking sliders and actually raised the tackling sliders to 70 just to see what they would do. I thought the d would come crashing through, but instead I'm actually seeing a few broken tackles from Steven Jackson, finally and he's actually falling forward when hit for a change. So, I don't know what the heck these NG sliders are doing AT ALL!!! Lol. Please, let me and the rest of operation sports know if ea actually puts out a slider tutorial. Lol.


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Old 12-28-2013, 04:35 PM   #4
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

I don't know if u know anything about 'object oriented programming,' but I'm currently working as a java developer and know some c++ and a few other programming languages, and what stands out to me SO MUCH in madden is what feels like the lack of object oriented programming. Every player should be their own 'object.' And, as such, move and think with their own rules based on all of the other objects on the field. And, the one 'object' they absolutely fail to code for is 'the ball.' The ball should absolutely be it's own object. And, not just for color or graphics, it needs to be it's own object responding to wind, gravity, bouncing off helmets, hands. Being thrown this way and that way, etc. And, while I assume it's being programmed that way, they just don't seem to implement it with its own abilities. If the ball were truly it's own 'object,' they could alter accuracy a hell of a lot better than they're doing right now.


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Old 12-28-2013, 06:33 PM   #5
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

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Originally Posted by OhMrHanky
I don't know if u know anything about 'object oriented programming,' but I'm currently working as a java developer and know some c++ and a few other programming languages, and what stands out to me SO MUCH in madden is what feels like the lack of object oriented programming. Every player should be their own 'object.' And, as such, move and think with their own rules based on all of the other objects on the field. And, the one 'object' they absolutely fail to code for is 'the ball.' The ball should absolutely be it's own object. And, not just for color or graphics, it needs to be it's own object responding to wind, gravity, bouncing off helmets, hands. Being thrown this way and that way, etc. And, while I assume it's being programmed that way, they just don't seem to implement it with its own abilities. If the ball were truly it's own 'object,' they could alter accuracy a hell of a lot better than they're doing right now.


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I agree what you have to presented in both posts here....I took some C++ and C# classes about 12 years ago but have long since forgotten most of it, but I understand the idea of object programming...Something is definitely wrong with the ball physics...
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Old 12-29-2013, 02:47 PM   #6
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

MrHanky...so what are you using for sliders so far? I used your sliders on the PS3 and they were excellent. Sad to hear you're seeing significant differences on NG that make it more difficult to pinpoint what sliders effect what.
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Old 12-29-2013, 06:39 PM   #7
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

Quote:
Originally Posted by OhMrHanky
Has anyone seen a broken tackle animation NG, EVER??!! This is totally killing me. I've seen very few broken tackles after a few weeks of playing. I've been tinkering with the tackling slider on both sides of the ball as I would actually like to see both hum and CPU broken tackles. I've down to 30, and have seen a few, but it still doesn't feel right and I'm not seeing them when I think I should. And, at 30, no matter what the run blocking is set to, the edge runs are ridiculous. It feels like the tackling slider controls run blocking/blockshed/broken tackles/CPU RB intelligence all at the same time and sadly, there is no happy medium. I would like to see some trucks and stiff arms, but I'm guessing I've got to go to tackling at 10 for that?! And, if I do, I'm sure I'll see another lynch game where he runs for 350 yds on me, not because of beast mode, but because with tackling low, my players never get anywhere near him because they are blocked off the field! Lol. Anyone found some sort of happy medium for tackling/blocking? I have a bad feeling there isn't one. For all the bashing ea takes, this is another spot. If you're going to create sliders with names like tackling and run blocking, it would be nice if that's actually what they controlled instead of blockshed and distance from ball carrier. Ugghhhh, getting frustrated with ea again.


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I with you here. I have been trying to find that happy medium also. I had a idea on dropping the game level to pro thinking that maybe there I can find that happy medium but no it hasn't happen. I dropped the tackle slider down as far as to zero and nothing.

I think I believe why we cant get that happen medium, and we wont find it. Its called "Real Time Physics"

I stated this will ruin the game because RTP will alleviate scripted animations.

You have to figure with RTP they have to react once contact is made, so when does the scripted animations kick in?

NFK2k,All pro2k, and previous Madden games didn't utilize RTP and the games offered more surprises to a outcome, but with RTP that's gone.

I along with a small hand-full of members here all said asking for RTP in a football game is a bad idea, but many disagreed. In time hopefully many more will see the negative to RTP in a football, and we can have it removed from the game, or better yet implemented differently.

NCAA 14 did a much better job with its implementation of RTP. Its not as dominant in the game as it is in Madden. Thus giving you way more unpredictable outcomes to a play.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:48 PM   #8
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Re: Tackling slider? Broken tackles/blockshed

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I with you here. I have been trying to find that happy medium also. I had a idea on dropping the game level to pro thinking that maybe there I can find that happy medium but no it hasn't happen. I dropped the tackle slider down as far as to zero and nothing.

I think I believe why we cant get that happen medium, and we wont find it. Its called "Real Time Physics"

I stated this will ruin the game because RTP will alleviate scripted animations.

You have to figure with RTP they have to react once contact is made, so when does the scripted animations kick in?

NFK2k,All pro2k, and previous Madden games didn't utilize RTP and the games offered more surprises to a outcome, but with RTP that's gone.

I along with a small hand-full of members here all said asking for RTP in a football game is a bad idea, but many disagreed. In time hopefully many more will see the negative to RTP in a football, and we can have it removed from the game, or better yet implemented differently.

NCAA 14 did a much better job with its implementation of RTP. Its not as dominant in the game as it is in Madden. Thus giving you way more unpredictable outcomes to a play.
lol, man. I appreciate the opinion, but we are definitely in disagreement on RTP. I have been waiting 20+ years for RTP!!! lol. Year after year getting these canned animations has been killing me. And, yeah, every year they seem to add a few more so the game looks a little different, a little fresher. When they introduced pro-tak in 10, I was happy with the idea and the improvement and this was sort of real time physics, or they were trying to implement real time momentum which is exactly what football needs/is. Momentum is huge/important. Sadly, EA just never executes well, and after a week of pro-tak, I had seen every animation and knew when they would be 'triggered' and how to set up the cpu for a big gain. So, I still wished for RTP. And, finally, with 13, they did it, or tried to do it, and actually, I am still amazed by that game. And, jukes happen/work, stiff arms happen (but, weren't very effective). But, what impressed me the most was after a year of playing that game, I STILL saw plays/tackles that I had NEVER seen. The most gorgeous random play I ever saw was near the release of 25. The cpu caught a screen pass, I NAILED him with the hit stick, the ball came out, my safety was already coming to help out, he dove towards the ball, did a tuck and roll while picking up the football, and ran 50 yds to paydirt. I was BLOWN AWAY!!!! You can't 'can' that animation. (well, I suppose you could), My point being, 'if' you can create a RTP engine, then ANYTHING is possible. And, 13 actually did that pretty well, and with a set of zero sliders, I loved the way that game played. Now, it needed some graphical enhancements, and touchups to gameplay, but I really dug the physics engine and was actually impressed with what ea did (well, madden had to copy from fifa, of course, but still, they did a good job and FINALLY thought outside the box by actually trying to implement physics instead of just filming a million animations and spitting them out on the field when they deem it correct.)
Sadly, for me, they took a giant step backwards with 25, and didn't build 'on top' of 13. Instead, it looks to me like they tried to combine the infinity engine with a canned animation processor, and the result was dreadful. Once again, I'm seeing the same animations over and over, and they just aren't implementing true physics in 25, imo. So, for me, I want a 100% RTP, and they can find a way to implement stiff arms and trucks that incorporate RTP and then we'd have an amazing game!
You know, really, they should probably just rip off the unreal engine like everybody else does for shooters and whatnot. I believe the unreal engine is a physics simulator engine and then programmers program their 'universe' on top of it. That's what I want, and that's what I think madden or any other football game needs to do to be 'real', to feel 'real', to play 'real.' They need to take the unreal engine and develop a 'football universe' out of it with football rules, out of bounds, etc., and add collisions (collision physics, collision detection for quality RBs to know when/where to juke), and make the football it's own object doing it's own thing, then have another collision detection system for WRs, DBs to detect that football object and go for it, then have a collision detection between the WR and DB, and BANG!!! it's Football time, baby!!! lol. Seriously, EA, if you read this, I have proposed something similar before and hope you take heed. Come out with a new system, call it CDS (Collision Detection System). Don't charge me for the name. I don't care. I just want a real football game and that is where it starts, a full on collision detection system where every player understands every other player and the ball as well. Let's do this. It's time.
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