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An epiphany about penalty sliders

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Old 10-11-2014, 08:21 PM   #17
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

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Originally Posted by Last Gunfighter
Ummm, actually they do. Sean Payton said after Sunday's game against the Bucs that the team has meetings and reports every week regarding the refs that will be doing the game and make adjustments accordingly. For instance, they knew the crew who was doing this Sunday's game were more likely to call penalties, almost twice as many, than any of the other crews. As a result they were particularly aware of this on Sunday and it paid big dividends. He even said it was most likely the difference in the game and was the only thing that offset the turnover differential. Saints had 6 for 50 yds, Bucs had 15 for 113 yds!
I would need to watch the interview, and game planning on trying to avoid penalties that a particular referee team may call is one thing, changing a players style of play is another...LB James Harrison, S Rodney Harrison didn't, at least notably change their style of play due to penalties or fines.

Every team will preach reducing penalties...

But if you are correct, and players change their aggressiveness or refrain from something that may get called more in one game than another, then the whole theory presented by the OP is back up for debate...Thus now we have to consider if a higher penalty chance may cause a player to not jump the snap or get too close to a receiver...

Though from observation; With a raise in RTP, I have not witnessed a slower or cautious pass rush, but just more RTP calls, and very weak acting by the QB as he falls down when brushed up against after passing the ball.

Last edited by 4thQtrStre5S; 10-11-2014 at 08:32 PM.
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Old 10-11-2014, 08:26 PM   #18
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

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Originally Posted by KingV2k3
It should help, due to increase in duration of block...but it should also affect run blocking, so be aware of that possibility...

I'm also currently seeing some success for others who are using really high RTP values like 85....so, my post with 5 may prove to be infearior to that high setting...

Either way, Im pretty convinced that the RTP penalty slider is a key component to the sack issue...

I look forward to your guys take on that!










Ironic that initially the prevailing thought was that the PEN SLIDERS had not effect on the play on the field.


Lab work, lab work, lab work. As all veteran slider pundits know, the "fix" is in the "mix," and the "mix" is in the futzing, playing, observing, charting, adjusting, playing, observing, charting until the game and the stats are in the ballpark of what happens on Monday's, Thursday's and Sunday's.


Since my PM has been crushed with requests for a peek into my lab data, let me share the following benchmarks that I typically try to work within:


1) On typical 4 - 5 man rushes by the CPU (DL and a LB or a DL and a Safety), with only the OL blocking, the pocket must hold for at least 2.5 seconds (yessss, even if it is JJ Watt bringing the heat) and no more than 3.0 seconds... Anything less or longer and you are outside of NFL norms for pocket sustainability. Note: If the CPU is able to get an UNBLOCKED pass rusher, then the time to sack is 1.4 secs to 1.7 secs.


Why does the Wiz track this? Because time to pass the ball is also related to QB ACC (higher the ACC, the better pocket, and time to see the play develop, less sacks, etc.).... Being able to have a pocket is a key component of the NFL passing game. If your pocket, or if the CPU's pocket, breaks down to quickly, it will impact the mix of passes, completion percentage and my favorite, AIR YARDS per ATTEMPT .


AIR YARDS per ATTEMPT is another metric I measure (Total Passing Yards - Yards After the Catch= AYA). Basically my theory is that for a Madden QB's numbers to fall within NFL averages, they must complete passes down field and not just drag routes and dump-off's. So, once again, to achieve this, you need to be able to THROW DOWN FIELD, hence you need pocket time.


Time to get back to the 'Bama - Razorback game.
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Old 10-12-2014, 06:51 AM   #19
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

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Originally Posted by Blazzen
I think myself and many others have been thinking of penalty sliders backwards for a while now. You can't use RL logic, you have to use EA programming logic when thinking about penalty sliders.

Raising/lower a penalty slider does not increase/decrease the referee's chance of calling the penalty. In the real NFL, defensive holding becomes a focus and now referees begin calling plays that weren't defensive holding last year but this year they are more sensitive to it and call it more often.

That is NOT how things work in Madden.

Increasing/decreasing a penalty slider does NOT increase/decrease the CPU referee's sensitivity to or likelihood of calling a penalty.

Increasing a penalty slider increases the chance that the animation/action that may generate a penalty will occur.

Offsides - causes the D line to "jump" a lot more often if on a higher setting. Causes the D line to get off the ball a lot faster.

False Start - causes the O line to "jump" a lot more often if on a higher setting. Causes the O line to get off the ball a lot faster.

Holding - causes the O-line to hold their blocks longer the higher the setting.

Face Mask - causes more violent hits and face mask tackles to occur the higher the setting.

Defensive Pass Interference - the higher the setting the more aggressive the defender will play the receiver. I could see it also making defenders jump routes more often.

Offensive Pass Interference - the higher the setting the more aggressive the receiver will play the ball.

KR/PR Interference - this is an odd one but I really believe this causes defenders to rally to the ball faster and you'll see more gang tackles.

Clipping - higher setting should result in better blocking for returns and in the run game too I imagine.

Intentional Grounding - this one is especially interesting because many people think you should set this lower so the CPU gets rid of the ball to avoid sacks. I actually think it may be the opposite. At a higher setting the CPU is more likely the throw the ball away which would possibly generate a grounding penalty.

Roughing the passer - a higher setting will cause blitzers to go after the QB more aggressively, likely resulting in more sacks.

Roughing the kicker - at a higher setting you see defenders get through the line and play more aggressive when trying to block kicks. At 100 I've come very close to having kicks blocked. Still haven't seen this called or had one blocked yet though but I'm sure it'll eventually happen.
I've been testing these ideas with the FBG roster ratings, along with SECElit3's All-Madden Sliders and I have to say the game plays differently, and I'd say these penalty sliders seem to have some of the affect advertised. But it is hard to tell if it is the FBG roster, SECElit3's All-Madden Sliders, or the penalties, or all three. In any case, I like what I see so far.

I've been tweaking some of them. I don't feel like the d-line is getting enough pressure fast enough, for example. But I'll keep looking. IN any case this is a great piece of knowledge. Thanks.
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Old 11-08-2014, 05:51 PM   #20
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blazzen
Intentional Grounding - this one is especially interesting because many people think you should set this lower so the CPU gets rid of the ball to avoid sacks. I actually think it may be the opposite. At a higher setting the CPU is more likely the throw the ball away which would possibly generate a grounding penalty.
I'm not trying to start a pissing match, but this was thoroughly tested on Madden 12 (then tested again retroactively on 08, 09, and 13), and the result is that there is absolutely no increase in called CPU penalties for grounding between 1 and 100 (after hours of testing both, exactly 0 penalties for grounding were ever called for either 1 or 100), nor any increase/decrease of CPU QBs throwing the ball away (rarely happens at 1 or 100); however the QB on CPU v CPU matches throws the ball earlier, completes more passes, as a result throws for more yards, scores more points, and is sacked less often with the setting set to 1 rather than 100. Lower = passes quicker; Higher = holds ball longer, takes more sacks.

The one thing we/I did not test is how the Grounding Slider affects interceptions. We/I should have recorded that. After getting most of the way through testing, I thought I noticed more CPU interceptions being thrown with Grounding at 1, but that very well could have been my imagination or bias. Maybe there is less receiver separation earlier in a play (there is), or CPU QBs make poorer decisions when throwing quicker? But then again maybe not. Who knows?

I started this thread http://www.operationsports.com/forum...t-rosters.html about these same issues in regards to Madden 12. Others had stated similar things before me. Don't really care who takes what info and does whatever with it; but yes, the fastest way to tweak a Madden game is to test and record results of changes to the Penalty Sliders. Start with penalties first, then tweak the Difficulty Sliders afterward.

Not sure what options are available in CCM or CCF or whatever, but just a heads up, the Coaching Sliders in the old Franchise Mode changed gameplay more than anything else. To the point where you could easily, and completely, break the game by drastically changing them. I mean literally destroy the gameplay. Like setting something at one end would result in a USER yard per carry average of negative yards (18 carries for -6 yards), or at the opposite end easily getting 15+ yard per carry average (18 carries for 300+ yards) using All-Madden sliders.

Sad that Penalty sliders still control gameplay animations and have almost nothing to do with when/how penalties get called.
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Old 11-08-2014, 06:15 PM   #21
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

@trey31:

Always interesting to get other's opinions / insights re: all / anything re: this "House of Cards", that are Madden settings, but my experience with the IG slider has yielded the opposite result...

80 works, anything else just doesn't work as well...

I'll admit, I don't run "tests", I simply play the game...

I've gotten in about 1200 versus the CPU (over the past decade plus) and that has mos def been the cornerstone of bringing out the best overall result re: pocket presence...FOR ME (and many others)...

Regardless, in the first post of the linked thread I saw this:

Int Grounding 1 = lower makes qb get rid of the ball quicker, higher makes them hold the ball longer and take more sacks. (confirmed by kcsam's testing results 12/20/2013)

Do you have any links for any / all exhaustive detail on exactly how this test was run and this result arrived at?

Always curious!


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Old 11-08-2014, 07:27 PM   #22
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by KingV2k3
@trey31:

Always interesting to get other's opinions / insights re: all / anything re: this "House of Cards", that are Madden settings, but my experience with the IG slider has yielded the opposite result...

80 works, anything else just doesn't work as well...

I'll admit, I don't run "tests", I simply play the game...

I've gotten in about 1200 versus the CPU (over the past decade plus) and that has mos def been the cornerstone of bringing out the best overall result re: pocket presence...FOR ME (and many others)...

Regardless, in the first post of the linked thread I saw this:

Int Grounding 1 = lower makes qb get rid of the ball quicker, higher makes them hold the ball longer and take more sacks. (confirmed by kcsam's testing results 12/20/2013)

Do you have any links for any / all exhaustive detail on exactly how this test was run and this result arrived at?

Always curious!

I too play with IG at 80. I think that's one piece of the puzzle solved. Lots of sets have it 80. QB seems to have the right mindset. They throw the ball away and move well in the pocket. Now we need the magic numbers for WR CATCH and QBA.

Through roster-making in previous EA football games, Playmakers and I have discovered that higher elusive ratings for QBs gives better QB play. Maybe we should start testing higher Elusive or/or Ball Carrier Vision ratings for QBs.

On other games BCV seems to give elite qbs a better field of vision for passing as well as running.
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Old 11-08-2014, 07:52 PM   #23
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

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Originally Posted by tommycoa
I too play with IG at 80. I think that's one piece of the puzzle solved. Lots of sets have it 80. QB seems to have the right mindset. They throw the ball away and move well in the pocket. Now we need the magic numbers for WR CATCH and QBA.

Through roster-making in previous EA football games, Playmakers and I have discovered that higher elusive ratings for QBs gives better QB play. Maybe we should start testing higher Elusive or/or Ball Carrier Vision ratings for QBs.

On other games BCV seems to give elite qbs a better field of vision for passing as well as running.
Where are you seeing it at 80, most sets I've seen have it low, like between 0 and maybe 15. But hey, if it makes the QB play better I'm interested.
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Old 11-09-2014, 01:46 AM   #24
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Re: An epiphany about penalty sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Last Gunfighter
Where are you seeing it at 80, most sets I've seen have it low, like between 0 and maybe 15. But hey, if it makes the QB play better I'm interested.

Yeah I always see either 0 or 100.
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