TDawg's Madden 17 XP Sliders

[The Chef]

Quote: Originally Posted by Champion8877

Yes, with OLB at 100, tdawg and others were finding too many elites A couple reasons Some positions have more expensive key attributes than others. Like offensive line, all of the key attributes cost a ton so they need more XP than other positions. Key attributes for OLB are fairly cheap or at least around average compared to other positions. OLBs are also one of the positions most likely to get weekly and yearly defensive awards(along with DE and MLB). This gives a big boost to the elites XP. And on top of this, it is one of the most loaded positions in the drafts. Last draft I did had 2 first round superstar OLBs, a second round superstar, a first round quick, a second round quick, and 2 others with normal dev but really good starting attributes Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Tapatalk

Only thing that worries me is simulating and playing provide two different outputs for tackles. When playing you get far more assisted tackles then actual tackles, when simulating you get the opposite and from what I can tell actual tackles are all that counts towards goals and gives xp, the assisted tackles provide nothing. Furthermore being in a 3-4 my OLB's typically aren't going to get a ton of tackles with the cpu consistently coming out in 3 wide seto relegating those OLB's as pass rushers now thus further hurting their XP chances.

Appreciate the reply though, at least it provides some insight into why theirs is lower.

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[Aestis]

This is incredible work tdawg, thank you for putting some quantifiable #s behind this.

That said, I have extreme reservations about this set for an online league. I highly advise any league commissioners to think twice before using tdawg's set. I have a strong feeling that things will get way out of whack by season 3.

The reality is that how 32 CPU teams progress their players in a sim year is completely different form how 32 humans do it and often tends to minimize progression of their best players. They also spend XP much differently. As such, ignoring anyone below 85 OVR is going to be absurdly dangerous for gameplay balance in an online CFM.

Not trying to rain on anyone's picnic, this seems like a great set to achieve a certain distribution of OVRs in a solo franchise with 31 CPUs. That's what was tested and that's what it's optimized for. But as I said... from my experience in online leagues & seeing how these sliders work for a human, I would highly advise not using these inflated XP sliders unless you are okay with much higher levels of talent in the league.

[redsfan4life]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

This is incredible work tdawg, thank you for putting some quantifiable #s behind this. That said, I have extreme reservations about this set for an online league. I highly advise any league commissioners to think twice before using tdawg's set. I have a strong feeling that things will get way out of whack by season 3. The reality is that how 32 CPU teams progress their players in a sim year is completely different form how 32 humans do it and often tends to minimize progression of their best players. They also spend XP much differently. As such, ignoring anyone below 85 OVR is going to be absurdly dangerous for gameplay balance in an online CFM. Not trying to rain on anyone's picnic, this seems like a great set to achieve a certain distribution of OVRs in a solo franchise with 31 CPUs. That's what was tested and that's what it's optimized for. But as I said... from my experience in online leagues & seeing how these sliders work for a human, I would highly advise not using these inflated XP sliders unless you are okay with much higher levels of talent in the league.

That may be true, what would you suggest be done to compensate?

After doing some analyzing..I looked at RG DJ Fluker for the Chargers. He has 72 pass block currently. It costs 2,922 xp to increase that just one point. That's not something you're going to get easily. I honestly believe that this slider set could work quite well in a league. Maybe dial back slightly on some of the spots like WR but overall I think the set looks good.

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by redsfan4life

That may be true, what would you suggest be done to compensate?

It's not an easy answer, and I don't pretend it is.

I'm using his sliders as a fantastic reference point and combining that with my personal feel from running through a number of seasons in a dev-and-sim solo franchise.

Extreme example which is easiest to illustrate my point: ignoring overall talent distribution and optimizing for the ideal number of 95-99 OVR and 90-94 OVR players at each position will accomplish exactly that. Take Kicker. At 100% slider settings I was able to take a 66 OVR rookie UDFA with 88 KAC and by midway through season 2, he was at 92 KAC. Spent 0 time developing the K/P positional group (and 0 people in a 32-man league will do this). So he's now 23 y/o and I'll have him in the mid-90s soon in the only attribute that matters. He's still only 69 OVR. Double his XP and I'd easily have him at ~94 KAC and still just 23 in year 2. Now you've inflated kicking accuracy a great deal based on data about how 32 CPUs develop their kickers and the assumption that OVR is the best measure for this.

In a solo franchise, OVR is probably fine. But we all know OVR is just a formula, it's one person's opinion of what attributes matter, and anyone who's ever played online knows for a kicker, KPW and KAC are what matter. AWR just doesn't really matter, but that's what will drive OVR and what the CPU is semi likely to develop.

So I used tdawg's data across all his sims (esp the early ones where he was listing 80-84 OVR guys and hadn't inflated sliders to 200-300% at nearly every position) and am making judgments based on that data + my own feeling & experience playing in & running leagues. It's not the best way to do it, but it's better than ignoring the truths about OVR and CPU/Human differences.

So I will be using a different set for our league, and despite my concerns about the methodology, I owe tdawg for his data, without it I'd be going 100% based on feel, which is akin to driving blind. At least now I can use his data as a reference and make adjustments from there.

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by redsfan4life

That may be true, what would you suggest be done to compensate? After doing some analyzing..I looked at RG DJ Fluker for the Chargers. He has 72 pass block currently. It costs 2,922 xp to increase that just one point. That's not something you're going to get easily. I honestly believe that this slider set could work quite well in a league. Maybe dial back slightly on some of the spots like WR but overall I think the set looks good.

Look at other positions. OL is one of the main areas I think he isn't far off. I will be using somewhere in the 200-250% range for OL.

[Woody31992]

Quote: Originally Posted by Aestis

It's not an easy answer, and I don't pretend it is. I'm using his sliders as a fantastic reference point and combining that with my personal feel from running through a number of seasons in a solo dev-and-sim solo franchise. Extreme example which is easiest to illustrate my point: ignoring overall talent distribution and optimizing for the ideal number of 95-99 OVR and 90-94 OVR players at each position will accomplish exactly that. Take Kicker. At 100% slider settings I was able to take a 66 OVR rookie UDFA with 88 KAC and by midway through season 2, he was at 92 KAC. Spent 0 time developing the K/P positional group (and 0 people in a 32-man league will do this). So he's now 23 y/o and I'll have him in the mid-90s soon in the only attribute that matters. He's still only 69 OVR. Double his XP and I'd easily have him at ~94 KAC and still just 23 in year 2. Now you've inflated kicking accuracy a great deal based on data about how 32 CPUs develop their kickers and the assumption that OVR is the best measure for this. In a solo franchise, OVR is probably fine. But we all know OVR is just a formula, it's one person's opinion of what attributes matter, and anyone who's ever played online knows for a kicker, KPW and KAC are what matter. AWR just doesn't really matter, but that's what will drive OVR and what the CPU is semi likely to develop. So I used tdawg's data across all his sims (esp the early ones where he was listing 80-84 OVR guys and hadn't inflated sliders to 200-300% at nearly every position) and am making judgments based on that data + my own feeling & experience playing in & running leagues. It's not the best way to do it, but it's better than ignoring the truths about OVR and CPU/Human differences. So I will be using a different set for our league, and despite my concerns about the methodology, I owe tdawg for his data, without it I'd be going 100% based on feel, which is akin to driving blind. At least now I can use his data as a reference and make adjustments from there.

What slider numbers do you think you'll be going with? I am trying to come up with a realistic XP Slider set for a 32 man league as well.

I'm running through some seasons where I actually do the gameplanning. Every user will get a gold each week, which I think already kills tdawgs sliders (those just sim to bronze, correct?)

Some of these positions definitely need a boost, but how much of a boost is the question.

[redsfan4life]

WR/OL/CB definitely need a boost. I'd honestly set up CB/WR to be the same I'm thinking. For balance reasons.

Kicker and Punter need a boost as well, but I think few would be really concerned about looking too heavily at OVR here. We all know AWR for kickers doesn't really do anything in a user v user game.

[Aestis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Woody31992

What slider numbers do you think you'll be going with? I am trying to come up with a realistic XP Slider set for a 32 man league as well. I'm running through some seasons where I actually do the gameplanning. Every user will get a gold each week, which I think already kills tdawgs sliders (those just sim to bronze, correct?) Some of these positions definitely need a boost, but how much of a boost is the question.

Still a WIP as we are starting our file on Friday, but here's where I've settled at the moment:

QB: 90
HB: 120
FB: 110
WR: 120
TE: 100
OT: 200
OG: 200
C: 200
DT: 100
DE: 100
OLB: 90
MLB: 100
CB: 130
FS: 130
SS: 130
K: 100
P: 100


If you go back to his earlier sims 2-4, you'll notice some similarities. When he started optimizing to get guys at 95+ OVR and not reporting 80-84 is when I felt like the set started to drastically depart from what will work well in a 32-person CFM.

I believe with the above set, drafted Superstars with solid starting ratings will def hit 90+ as those players will be smart about prioritizing their development. As you said, you'll see 2 gold training sessions each week in an online CFM which already makes a huge difference.

Other small considerations: depending on league rules, we allow swapping between CB & S. So if CB has a higher XP boost, you'll simply see a lot of position switches to CB for the XP while staying at FS/SS. Same deal for T/G/C.