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Old 09-07-2016, 02:28 PM   #17
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

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Originally Posted by Cajungodfather
We are using this slider set in Legends Premier League. Only have about a week and a half in game, of data, so not much to go off of as of yet. I'll definitely keep you updated on the leagues stats as we chug along though. I've played one game, and watched maybe 4 or 5 others. So far, I love the sliders. I use the saints, with a bad oline, and ended up with maybe 50 rushing yards against the Giants. Roughly 30 came from one long run. I've seen other guys, with good talent for running, have success if they stuck with it. The only concern we have so far, is the speed threshold being at 60. Makes perfect sense for the tosses and sweeps, but we aren't sure wrs are getting the right amount of separation on longer passes. I'm seeing guys resort to running a ton of drag plays, because wrs are getting separation, consistently, or at all, in some cases. I've also had guys mention DEs running down their RBs.


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Love the feedback, thank you--

RE: rushing, that's why anecdotal feedback is so tough. A terrible run game could mean sliders are low, but just as often if not moreso it's just a terrible run game. Happens in the NFL ALL the time. There's a high amount of variance, from 150-200+ yard team totals to 50. Lots of chunks come in the forms of big runs across all teams, so sometimes churning out a number of 2-3 yard runs plus a 30 yarder feels "too hard," but may actually be mirroring the NFL remarkably well. Definitely keep me in the loop as you get some data!

SPD threshold--I can tell you that anecdotally I have seen WRs get separation, just not nearly as often. At 50 the game feels like an arcade if you have a WR with elite speed or elite release. At 60, I'm still seeing separation and connecting on bombs, but I have to actually read the release, it's not just an assumption I can make. I'm still not sure if RBK at 56 is high enough or if it needs a bump. I think I'll hear some grumbling in our league about DE pursuit (side-note: as guys 'play closer' to each other, I feel pursuit & accel may come into play over raw SPD more frequently) success vs RBs & QBs.

Philosophical rant driving the SPD disparity slider:
Spoiler


Last note RE: drags--I've actually noticed less separation on drags which I see as a good thing, they felt a little OP/cheap to me in M16 vs man coverage. Interesting that your guys are relying on them even more. Do you know how much your league plays DBs at the LOS? If they're mostly playing in off-man coverage, that could both explain why deep balls are tough to come by (I'd argue that's okay) & drags are being more effective.
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Old 09-07-2016, 02:39 PM   #18
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Love the feedback, thank you--

RE: rushing, that's why anecdotal feedback is so tough. A terrible run game could mean sliders are low, but just as often if not moreso it's just a terrible run game. Happens in the NFL ALL the time. There's a high amount of variance, from 150-200+ yard team totals to 50. Lots of chunks come in the forms of big runs across all teams, so sometimes churning out a number of 2-3 yard runs plus a 30 yarder feels "too hard," but may actually be mirroring the NFL remarkably well. Definitely keep me in the loop as you get some data!

SPD threshold--I can tell you that anecdotally I have seen WRs get separation, just not nearly as often. At 50 the game feels like an arcade if you have a WR with elite speed or elite release. At 60, I'm still seeing separation and connecting on bombs, but I have to actually read the release, it's not just an assumption I can make. I'm still not sure if RBK at 56 is high enough or if it needs a bump. I think I'll hear some grumbling in our league about DE pursuit (side-note: as guys 'play closer' to each other, I feel pursuit & accel may come into play over raw SPD more frequently) success vs RBs & QBs.

Philosophical rant driving the SPD disparity slider:
Spoiler


Last note RE: drags--I've actually noticed less separation on drags which I see as a good thing, they felt a little OP/cheap to me in M16 vs man coverage. Interesting that your guys are relying on them even more.


The drags, I think we are seeing because a lot of guys are relying on zone coverages, not using them to beat man, like you'd expect. Specifically, zones that don't protect the flats or short yardage. As long guys aren't getting 10-20 yard gain consistently, I don't think it's going to be an issue, long term. You are 100% right, in M16, they were way over used in almost every league game I was in. But, again, it's just a very small sample, only 16 games played so far in the one week, with a few this week. I personally like the SPD where it's at, if only to keep the scores and yardage within reason. If this allows us to get big plays once a game, or every other game, it'll stay where it's at. So far, we have had a decent amount of defensive battles, which I like to see.



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Old 09-07-2016, 02:40 PM   #19
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cajungodfather
We are using this slider set in Legends Premier League. Only have about a week and a half in game, of data, so not much to go off of as of yet. I'll definitely keep you updated on the leagues stats as we chug along though. I've played one game, and watched maybe 4 or 5 others. So far, I love the sliders. I use the saints, with a bad oline, and ended up with maybe 50 rushing yards against the Giants. Roughly 30 came from one long run. I've seen other guys, with good talent for running, have success if they stuck with it. The only concern we have so far, is the speed threshold being at 60. Makes perfect sense for the tosses and sweeps, but we aren't sure wrs are getting the right amount of separation on longer passes. I'm seeing guys resort to running a ton of drag plays, because wrs are getting separation, consistently, or at all, in some cases. I've also had guys mention DEs running down their RBs.


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One more area I'm concerned about for this set as a starting point is fumbles. At 60 when I am testing vs the CPU, I still see a lot of QB strip-sacks. Can't imagine that will happen LESS often vs users. Yet I don't want to make it so RBs just never fumble. Let me know if you are thinking it feels the Fumble slider needs to come up even more as a starting point until data tells me how often the league is fumbling... then will do my best to benchmark QB fumbles and Everyone Else fumbles vs NFL QB fumbles and Everyone Else fumbles.
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Old 09-07-2016, 03:06 PM   #20
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

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Originally Posted by Aestis
One more area I'm concerned about for this set as a starting point is fumbles. At 60 when I am testing vs the CPU, I still see a lot of QB strip-sacks. Can't imagine that will happen LESS often vs users. Yet I don't want to make it so RBs just never fumble. Let me know if you are thinking it feels the Fumble slider needs to come up even more as a starting point until data tells me how often the league is fumbling... then will do my best to benchmark QB fumbles and Everyone Else fumbles vs NFL QB fumbles and Everyone Else fumbles.


Our league is a no switch league, so you don't get too many user hit stick or strip fumbles. Our fumble rate will probably look different than a league that allows switching after the snap.


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Old 09-07-2016, 06:23 PM   #21
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

Updated with the XP sliders I think we'll be starting with on Friday.

Source: I relied heavily on tdawg's data from his thread: http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2048395428


But as he even admitted, his recommended sliders were not built for H2H use and my strong belief is they will skew WILDLY high in a 32-person league. The data from his efforts was invaluable, however, and I used that plus my own feelings about how positions were progressing & how users prioritize development to settle on this XP set. I leaned more toward the distribution of his earlier sims 2-4 rather than his later ones which prioritized getting his desired amount of 95+ OVR guys and ignoring or diminishing how many 80-84 or 85-89 OVR guys resulted.

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Old 09-09-2016, 08:05 PM   #22
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

Just started file--updated with our finalized initial slider set.

Only change is I did some punt testing to benchmark the top distances and upped Punt Power to 55.
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Old 09-10-2016, 07:19 AM   #23
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Great research done here! Thanks!

We are apart of Sim style 32 user League for Australian and New Zealand Madden players.

As a commissioner of the league we thank you for your hard work.
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Old 09-10-2016, 08:18 AM   #24
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Re: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders

Concerns through 3 weeks:
Pass blocking - we are averaging about twice as many sacks as the NFL per game right now. We have had a few games with 11 total sacks, while most are in the 6-9 range.


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