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RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

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Old 09-04-2017, 06:57 PM   #17
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

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Old 09-04-2017, 07:01 PM   #18
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

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Originally Posted by Chin2112
Hey dude, so i've noticed you've left a lot of the sliders at 100, in our league we're planning on banning positional changes so guys can't move DEs to DT, CBs to FS and even banning the moving of OT to OG, OG to C etc.

With that in mind would you recommend moving more in relation to TDawg's XP slider set and his slight variations or would you just keep them similar like you have?

We've also noticed that OL still doesn't get much XP so we're worried about it being at 80, knowing how well you run your league and how well your sliders work I'd be interested in your opinion.

Thank you so much for the work you do!

Great question--RE banning position swaps, then yes great call out, I'd advise using tdawg's sliders for each position and dropping down slightly... so like 210 might become 160 or 180 tops.

Re: OL, they don't get much for regular goals but keep in mind a couple of changes from M17 which aren't immediately obvious when you crank up a CFM and are the reasons for tdawg's settings dropping to 80-120 for certain OL instead of 200+ like he had in M17:

- all OL now receive increased seasonal XP goals
- all OL now receive increased XP for making pro bowls
- blocking costs were reduced

So you're right in that week to week, I don't think OL will progress much. But if you focus on them with development they should progress, and if they make pro bowls and/or hit season goals, some elite players should start to emerge.

EDIT: As a postscript re: OL, keep in mind tdawg's and my philosophy is about more or less matching starting distribution. So by design you can't develop every OL to 85+. Look at how many teams have starters with low/mid 70s for blocking stats. The league can probably improve that as a whole but you don't want league blocking talent to skyrocket too much... throws gameplay balance off.

Players who are Quick/SS and receive development, win awards, etc... are the guys who will see large increases. Everyone else will develop but probably not into stars. It might be tricky to get everyone to 80-85+ in every blocking attribute unless you invest heavily in your line.
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Old 09-05-2017, 10:20 AM   #19
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Thinking about giving these a try in my 32-team CFM. We're really looking for a set that allows for a realistic pass rush (not all day in the pocket), and much-improved zone/man coverage (receivers not running free on every play). Have you seen good results, in those areas, from this set?

A few other things I'd love clarification on:
- one thing that they're tuning in the upcoming patch is pass rush. Any reason in particular that you bumped pass blocking up, rather than down?

- Any reason in particular you set on 70 for speed threshold? This is not something we've really messed with in the past, as we want speed to matter. But if it helps coverage i'm all for it.

- Any reason you set on All-Madden rather than All-Pro? Seen tweets that indicate All-Pro allows for play most close to player ratings.

Thanks for all you do!
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Old 09-05-2017, 01:12 PM   #20
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
Thinking about giving these a try in my 32-team CFM. We're really looking for a set that allows for a realistic pass rush (not all day in the pocket), and much-improved zone/man coverage (receivers not running free on every play). Have you seen good results, in those areas, from this set?
Anecdotally, yes, I generally like what I'm seeing. Keep in mind this is still very much just a starting point until I get hard data from our league. We're starting our league this week when the roster update releases. Once league data from our games starts pouring in, I'll have a much better idea of how to adjust/refine so that we benchmark accurately vs the NFL. So, I'm only presenting the above set as a starting point, but I do think it'll be pretty close.

Coverage will be very tough, pass rush will come much quicker than many guys are used to. QBs will miss throws, esp if their accuracy is low 80s. Do want to warn you, there's realistic drive success rates and there's what most guys THINK are realistic success rates. This set will be tuned to make it tough to score. NFL median per-game was in the 23.5 - 24.0 ppg range off ~60-65 snaps per team. Lots of guys are used to scoring 25-30 pts off 40-45 snaps. Score & yardage may look the same, but the gameplay is MUCH more forgiving on offense. A punt or two in a game, at most. With my set... punting & playing the field position game will matter. Not forcing it every time on 3rd & long will matter. Not everyone enjoys this. Gotta be honest with yourself & make sure the league is on board. This style of gameplay is not for every league, and I don't mean that condescendingly. You have to be honest about what you & your guys truly want, not what they THINK they want.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
A few other things I'd love clarification on:
- one thing that they're tuning in the upcoming patch is pass rush. Any reason in particular that you bumped pass blocking up, rather than down?
Great question. Pass rush feels pretty weak on competitive mode. On All Madden sim mode default sliders it comes REAL fast. 65 feels better. I don't have #s yet, so that could be a bit high or low.
Sack rates and success rates of downfield passing, pass yds thru the air, etc. will tell me if it needs dropping or raising from there.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
- Any reason in particular you set on 70 for speed threshold? This is not something we've really messed with in the past, as we want speed to matter. But if it helps coverage i'm all for it.
Speed absolutely still matters at 70. But it's not a /win button. A +5 speed WR won't just be wide open on streaks all the time, but leaving him in man/press with no S over the top will still be risky. Requires a good release, WR beating his man by a couple steps, and a great throw, so it's not a reliable TD like in M17. But it's RISK of a TD, like in the NFL. If Tyreek Hill could just run by his man every game IRL, he'd have 16-20 TDs and 1800+ yds. At 70 the game will feel much more like a game of inches and at times you'll need to throw to guys who are covered 1on1. Choose your targets wisely: do they have leverage, is it a jump ball with a low risk of INT, etc. My hope is big bodied WRs & TEs will have some value there. You saw my screenshot of Braxton catching the TD with the defender practically draped over him.

RE speed disparity, the difference between a 4.3 guy (~95 SPD) and a 4.5 guy (~87-88 SPD) we are used to seeing 5-10 yds of open space between them, but IRL it's like a single step over the course of 40 yards, and that's without pads, without contact, with a free release, in an optimal straight-line speed setting. Now give a superior corner the ability to bump, better technique, etc... yes an 88 SPD Sherman can get beat by a speedster, but it doesn't happen every time he's left in man/press, and when he is beat it's by a step or two requiring an accurate throw, not 5-10 yds. That's silly, but a lot of Madden players expect it. Remember the video of Clowney just running down a WR in an NFL game last season? Yes he's a freak, but the difference between 87 spd and 95 spd is a lot closer than what guys who play Madden tend to expect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
- Any reason you set on All-Madden rather than All-Pro? Seen tweets that indicate All-Pro allows for play most close to player ratings.
Yeah, it's pretty simple. On All Pro, for many leagues including ours, scoring will be off the charts no matter what sliders you use. Guys can say what they want about "true ratings," whatever that even means. If it doesn't result in the most realistic gameplay, it's not for me. We tend to be a higher skilled league than average, I don't say that with pride, I really don't care how we stack up, I only care about intra-league parity. But it's just evident that we have more talent than most leagues, and that is certainly a factor in these sliders. So maybe some other leagues can play on AP and keep scoring realistic. But I kinda doubt it.

Even in our league, anyone who has a game and only scores 13 points is going to tell me sliders are too tough. But if they are 29th in the league in scoring and averaging 17 ppg... sliders may be okay. Nobody wants to be 29th or 32nd in the league in anything, but somebody has to be. You hope it's not the same guys every season, but these sliders are designed so that if the NFL median is 24 ppg, that means about 8-12 teams are scoring less than that. Scoring is tough, a true realism league isn't going to apologize for that.


In closing, reminder these are a starting point until data informs the set. Thought about not posting anything until we get a few weeks into season 1, but figured some folks may at least want to see what we're starting with. Hope this helps!
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Last edited by Aestis; 09-05-2017 at 01:19 PM.
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Old 09-05-2017, 02:02 PM   #21
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Gotta say, I'm very optimistic about these following your response. There's a lot of sets on there that have pages upon pages of feedback, so I'm always a little skeptical when I see one that's a little less populated with comments. But you hit the nail on the head with what we're looking for.

Our league seems much like yours. Have a core of 20+ that's been together for three cycles now, and it's a really skilled group. We tried playing Week 1 with some adjusted All-Pro sliders that are really designed for User-CPU, and people are just too good to not be putting up 35-40 points easily.

As for your warnings about things being tough and not for everyone, honestly, we are your ideal league for this set. We've always played 11 minute quarters with runoff to 17 seconds, and are looking for scores that mirror NFL averages throughout the league. We'll probably run with these but keep our quarter lengths, as our group is so used to them and it's not a significant different.

Would you like access to our DaddyLeagues for additional data points?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Anecdotally, yes, I generally like what I'm seeing. Keep in mind this is still very much just a starting point until I get hard data from our league. We're starting our league this week when the roster update releases. Once league data from our games starts pouring in, I'll have a much better idea of how to adjust/refine so that we benchmark accurately vs the NFL. So, I'm only presenting the above set as a starting point, but I do think it'll be pretty close.

Coverage will be very tough, pass rush will come much quicker than many guys are used to. QBs will miss throws, esp if their accuracy is low 80s. Do want to warn you, there's realistic drive success rates and there's what most guys THINK are realistic success rates. This set will be tuned to make it tough to score. NFL median per-game was in the 23.5 - 24.0 ppg range off ~60-65 snaps per team. Lots of guys are used to scoring 25-30 pts off 40-45 snaps. Score & yardage may look the same, but the gameplay is MUCH more forgiving on offense. A punt or two in a game, at most. With my set... punting & playing the field position game will matter. Not forcing it every time on 3rd & long will matter. Not everyone enjoys this. Gotta be honest with yourself & make sure the league is on board. This style of gameplay is not for every league, and I don't mean that condescendingly. You have to be honest about what you & your guys truly want, not what they THINK they want.




Great question. Pass rush feels pretty weak on competitive mode. On All Madden sim mode default sliders it comes REAL fast. 65 feels better. I don't have #s yet, so that could be a bit high or low.
Sack rates and success rates of downfield passing, pass yds thru the air, etc. will tell me if it needs dropping or raising from there.




Speed absolutely still matters at 70. But it's not a /win button. A +5 speed WR won't just be wide open on streaks all the time, but leaving him in man/press with no S over the top will still be risky. Requires a good release, WR beating his man by a couple steps, and a great throw, so it's not a reliable TD like in M17. But it's RISK of a TD, like in the NFL. If Tyreek Hill could just run by his man every game IRL, he'd have 16-20 TDs and 1800+ yds. At 70 the game will feel much more like a game of inches and at times you'll need to throw to guys who are covered 1on1. Choose your targets wisely: do they have leverage, is it a jump ball with a low risk of INT, etc. My hope is big bodied WRs & TEs will have some value there. You saw my screenshot of Braxton catching the TD with the defender practically draped over him.

RE speed disparity, the difference between a 4.3 guy (~95 SPD) and a 4.5 guy (~87-88 SPD) we are used to seeing 5-10 yds of open space between them, but IRL it's like a single step over the course of 40 yards, and that's without pads, without contact, with a free release, in an optimal straight-line speed setting. Now give a superior corner the ability to bump, better technique, etc... yes an 88 SPD Sherman can get beat by a speedster, but it doesn't happen every time he's left in man/press, and when he is beat it's by a step or two requiring an accurate throw, not 5-10 yds. That's silly, but a lot of Madden players expect it. Remember the video of Clowney just running down a WR in an NFL game last season? Yes he's a freak, but the difference between 87 spd and 95 spd is a lot closer than what guys who play Madden tend to expect.




Yeah, it's pretty simple. On All Pro, for many leagues including ours, scoring will be off the charts no matter what sliders you use. Guys can say what they want about "true ratings," whatever that even means. If it doesn't result in the most realistic gameplay, it's not for me. We tend to be a higher skilled league than average, I don't say that with pride, I really don't care how we stack up, I only care about intra-league parity. But it's just evident that we have more talent than most leagues, and that is certainly a factor in these sliders. So maybe some other leagues can play on AP and keep scoring realistic. But I kinda doubt it.

Even in our league, anyone who has a game and only scores 13 points is going to tell me sliders are too tough. But if they are 29th in the league in scoring and averaging 17 ppg... sliders may be okay. Nobody wants to be 29th or 32nd in the league in anything, but somebody has to be. You hope it's not the same guys every season, but these sliders are designed so that if the NFL median is 24 ppg, that means about 8-12 teams are scoring less than that. Scoring is tough, a true realism league isn't going to apologize for that.


In closing, reminder these are a starting point until data informs the set. Thought about not posting anything until we get a few weeks into season 1, but figured some folks may at least want to see what we're starting with. Hope this helps!

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Old 09-05-2017, 03:07 PM   #22
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
There's a lot of sets on there that have pages upon pages of feedback, so I'm always a little skeptical when I see one that's a little less populated with comments.
Understandable. My audience is strictly for commissioners of 32-man leagues who are searching for a more realistic USER v USER set, so let's call it... extremely niche compared to thousands upon thousands of solo CFM'ers. But there were at least several other leagues all using my set or basing theirs off mine in M17. And if you check out Charter's All Madden set, it's now eerily close in a few areas, so we're not completely out in left field.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bucknut7
As for your warnings about things being tough and not for everyone, honestly, we are your ideal league for this set.
Awesome! A side mission of these sliders is to join a larger community of leagues who actually want to be realism leagues. The term "sim league" these days applies to basically every single league ever with dubious accuracy. Some are too loose and arcade-y, some have so many rules that they kill the strategy & competition we all love about football. Many are well-intentioned and think their stats are realistic, because it feels that way, because they are the kind of guy who should be averaging 5 ypc, they just know it. Because throwing it 10-15 yds through the air into soft coverage and never checking down and almost always getting 3+ yds on a run, and averaging 10+ yds per pass attempt all feels GREAT, so it must be realistic.

Snark aside, I've enjoyed connecting with the like-minded folks who understand that a lot of NFL games look ugly on the ground. 3.9 ypc for the season means you're going to have some 1.9 ypc games. That throwing it 15 yds through the air on 3rd & 11 on your own 20 isn't always the best decision, that's why NFL teams with middling lines or mediocre QBs run a draw & punt there & live to fight another day. On our set in M17 you FELT that, because converting there was tough and the risk of a sack/fumble or INT-TD was so real, lol.

RE: Daddyleagues, I probably wouldn't be able to get much out of it. Need game-by-game data exported into a specific file I use to analyze our stats, and I only (barely) have time to run ours.

So given you all will be running about 108 plays/game (we run about 116-118) vs the NFL's ~128, you will want to make offense slightly easier to get scoring about right. Even though the set I post & update over time will be tailored for our league, I feel it is a great benchmark for any league to start from and adjust to fit their own needs & settings.
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Old 09-05-2017, 03:16 PM   #23
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

M17 Thread FYI: RFF's M17 Sim League USER v USER Sliders
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Old 09-05-2017, 04:47 PM   #24
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Re: RFF's M18 32-man CFM USER v USER Sliders

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Just messaged my league that we're implementing these when we advance to Week 2. Very optimistic!
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