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Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

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Old 10-10-2017, 09:05 AM   #17
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Re: Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

As best I can tell from actually measuring data across many games, Offsides & Roughing have no impact on the pass rush outside penalties called.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:13 AM   #18
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Re: Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Personally I'm pretty dubious penalty sliders affect gameplay much if at all. I *want* to believe, because guys on OpSports make these declarative, bold claims--but often you can find equally bold claims in direct opposition to each other and always without any evidence or measurement whatsoever.

However, as you know it's kinda desperate times for the 32-man league slider community this cycle. All Pro is pure arcade offense, but pass rush on All Madden is just so powerful. So, I'm experimenting with dropping Roughing & Offsides in our league as those are two sliders that elicit the strongest claims of affecting the pass rush (i.e. lessening it.) Only a few games into the week, so it's still way early to say anything for sure, but for what it's worth our sack rate is identical to what it's been for weeks now.

I hope I'm wrong, but I have never gotten any of the many people who make hard-fact declarations about what large differences penalty sliders make to back it up with anything resembling evidence. Confirmation bias is stronk.
I'm in the same boat as you.

I'm skeptical of any such claim when it is based on things like a player's observations from playing a few games. Posters will say something like "after doing some testing..."
You ask them what testing they did, it will be something like oh well I played one game with it at 0 and one at 99.

The example I always go back to is years ago with one of the last NCAA games. A large number of players were swearing that if you held L2 or something while passing it acted as a precision modifier of sorts and was necessary for passes. It was nonsense and the lead developer's (Ben something) response to this was too literally laugh out loud. He assured us there was no secret precision passing modifier. The reaction from those gamers was that maybe he wasn't aware of it, but its there I tell ya!
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:52 PM   #19
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Re: Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

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Originally Posted by ggsimmonds
I'm in the same boat as you.

I'm skeptical of any such claim when it is based on things like a player's observations from playing a few games. Posters will say something like "after doing some testing..."
You ask them what testing they did, it will be something like oh well I played one game with it at 0 and one at 99.

The example I always go back to is years ago with one of the last NCAA games. A large number of players were swearing that if you held L2 or something while passing it acted as a precision modifier of sorts and was necessary for passes. It was nonsense and the lead developer's (Ben something) response to this was too literally laugh out loud. He assured us there was no secret precision passing modifier. The reaction from those gamers was that maybe he wasn't aware of it, but its there I tell ya!

Yeah. I've been tracking league data of user v user games only in our CFM since M16. So if a change makes a difference, I should be able to see it in the data across tens & eventually hundreds of games.

I laugh when someone plays a game or two and makes a change because of it. Most changes you basically can't see in a game. This makes it tricky because this also means you can't see when it makes NO difference.

For instance, when I raise or lower the RBK slider, I can see our median YPC in a given week go up or down a bit. Maybe avg of 4.0 across a few weeks to an avg of 3.8 across a few weeks will be the difference between, say, 57 & 59 RBK. But so many other things go into run success that you'll have a game where someone busts a couple big ones and averages 9.9 YPC, and games where they just get stuffed and fall behind and average 1.8 YPC.

A "sensitive" slider, I'll see an effect from just 1 or 2 points. Most sliders I expect to see differences from 5-10 points.

So, penalty sliders? What happens when I move Roughing & Offsides both from 50-60 down to 1 all at once, two penalty sliders that certain folks confidently claim make "the biggest" difference on the pass rush & sacks. Answer: no change whatsoever.
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Old 10-10-2017, 05:22 PM   #20
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Re: Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
Yeah. I've been tracking league data of user v user games only in our CFM since M16. So if a change makes a difference, I should be able to see it in the data across tens & eventually hundreds of games.

I laugh when someone plays a game or two and makes a change because of it. Most changes you basically can't see in a game. This makes it tricky because this also means you can't see when it makes NO difference.

For instance, when I raise or lower the RBK slider, I can see our median YPC in a given week go up or down a bit. Maybe avg of 4.0 across a few weeks to an avg of 3.8 across a few weeks will be the difference between, say, 57 & 59 RBK. But so many other things go into run success that you'll have a game where someone busts a couple big ones and averages 9.9 YPC, and games where they just get stuffed and fall behind and average 1.8 YPC.

A "sensitive" slider, I'll see an effect from just 1 or 2 points. Most sliders I expect to see differences from 5-10 points.

So, penalty sliders? What happens when I move Roughing & Offsides both from 50-60 down to 1 all at once, two penalty sliders that certain folks confidently claim make "the biggest" difference on the pass rush & sacks. Answer: no change whatsoever.
Ah yes Data, a concept lost on some. Most guys rely on feelings, they lower a penalty slider and report back that it "feels smoother."
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Old 10-12-2017, 05:43 PM   #21
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Re: Penalties : Offside, D.Holding, DPI : Critical

I'm going to bury this here because I'm not ready to declare it yet in its own thread, but... there's one thing & one thing only that I've seen make a sizeable & immediate impact on sack rates in USER v USER games.

Holding slider? No.
Roughing the Passer? No.
Offsides? No.
User Pass Block slider? Still, somehow, no--sack rates did not drop at all while PBK slider gradually moved from 60 to 100 over the course of ~8 weeks' worth of games. Note I can't say that means the user PBK slider does nothing. It could be guys got gradually greedier and stuck in the pocket longer to get those longer passes off as they got slightly more time. The eye test across many games probably wouldn't agree with this, but it's possible. I'm pretty unconvinced the PBK slider made any material difference, though.


So which slider is the one and only thing I've seen make a difference in the data for USER v USER games?

Answer:
CPU Pass Block slider.


Like I said... don't treat this as 100% yet but the sack rate in our league games fell significantly the moment I cranked this slider way up and have remained generally lower since. Talking tens of games of sample size here, not just me eyeballing "feel." That said, tens of games isn't what I would consider definitive proof. I will be monitoring, but it's interesting and surprising to me if it continues to bear itself out. Maybe just a fluke false alarm, though.

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Last edited by Aestis; 10-12-2017 at 05:46 PM.
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