Slider Makers: The "Master Toolkit" Slider Knowledge Resource

[Aestis]

Slider gurus & interested slider community,

Intro/purpose:

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I have been considering creating a thread like this for a while now.

What every quality slider set creator understands--or should understand--is that there is no one truly "realistic" slider set which works well for every player. Some folks only play the CPU, some are facing other users, and some leagues have an even mix of both. Skill is vastly different--a run game that might result in 3.9 ypc for one user could be a breeze for another to hit 7+.

So the target can differ from set to set. But there are also things that are fact-based or at least heavily evidence-based that should inform slider sets. There's some really great stuff that gets buried in different threads (e.g. ranta's research into game speed/speed parity & NFL combines in my slider thread), and conversely there are some misconceptions that never really gets cleared up. This includes anything from outlining what ARE the NFL benchmarks for realism (per play, per game) as well as how do certain sliders definitively work (e.g. penalties)?

Most of all, I'd like to keep track of "the known" as a sort of knowledge base for slider makers (myself included) to draw from. There are a LOT of unsubstantiated claims around this forum. Some are likely true or partially true, but some are not. I'd like this thread to be a place where testing & evidence & facts can rule the day. If this thread gains any traction whatsoever from the slider community, I'll keep the OP updated & organized by topic/subtopic with all the fact- and evidence-based things we know/find neatly summarized & linked.

To be clear, the goal here is not to determine a "correct" slider set. The goal here is to give slider makers a jumping-off point, a toolkit of sorts, to help better inform our own individual targets. Put another way, this is not about telling people that run blocking should be set to X. It's about a centralized resource for what are the relevant NFL target metrics, and what are the mechanics that provably affect the run game? It's about understanding the trade-off between per-play gameplay realism vs per-game stat realism, two equally important goals which are often times at odds. It's about removing mystery and unsubstantiated declarations and instituting facts, evidence, research, & testing. It's about informing decisions, not trying to make decisions for people.

So, add your knowledge about how certain sliders work--with supporting evidence! Add some interesting (and relevant) target metrics--and explain why they matter! Add here what you DON'T know that you'd like answered--or at least see the relevant evidence/proof compiled in one place to judge for yourself! Add entirely new areas of information I've missed below! Tell me how we can make this thread even more informative & relevant! The only things I will discourage in this thread are absolute declarations without any evidence or facts to substantiate them.

And with that, let's see if this experiment gains any traction...

All NFL benchmarks are from the 2016 season, per NFL.com.

GAME SPEED & SPEED PARITY

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Key NFL Benchmarks
Coming soon: ranta's player speed benchmarking

Questions/topics to explore

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RUN GAME

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Key NFL Benchmarks
2016 Team Stats
Median Yds per Carry: 4.20 (max: 5.35; min: 3.17)
Median Yds per Game: 109 (max: 164; min: 75)
Median Lost Fumble Rate (% of Total Off Snaps): 0.88% (max: 1.51%; min: 0.29%)

See "Statistics Glossary & Concepts" section below for more info on median vs average.


Questions/topics to explore

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Slider/Game Mechanics

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PASSING

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Key NFL Benchmarks
2016 Team Stats
Median Yds per Attempt: 7.2 (max: 9.2; min: 5.9)
Median Completion Rate: 63.2% (max: 70.4%; min: 54.4%)
Median Yds per Completion: 11.5 (max: 13.3; min: 9.9)
Median Yds per Game: 258 (max: 329; min: 198)
Median Yds thru Air per Completion: 6.2 (max: 8.0; min: 4.9)
Median INT Rate (% of Pass Attempts): 2.3% (max: 4.5%; min: 0.4%)


Questions/topics to explore

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Slider/Game Mechanics

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PASS RUSH

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Key NFL Benchmarks
2016 Team Stats
Median % of Dropbacks Sacked: 5.8% (max: 10.4%; min: 2.9%)
Median Sacks Taken per Game: 2.2 (max: 4.1; min: 1.1)
Coming soon: pass rush time-to-pressure-QB chart.

Questions/topics to explore

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Slider/Game Mechanics

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Coming soon: hypothesis that CPU PBK slider affects user games.

COVERAGE

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Key NFL Benchmarks
Coming soon: DB-WR distance at point of catch metrics

Questions/topics to explore

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• Is there any credence to the idea that the PDRT and/or coverage sliders are reversed?

Slider/Game Mechanics

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PENALTIES

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Key NFL Benchmarks
Coming soon: NFL penalty frequencies

Questions/topics to explore

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• DO PENALTIES REALLY AFFECT GAMEPLAY?

Slider/Game Mechanics

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MADDEN MISCELLANY

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Questions/topics to explore

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Slider/Game Mechanics

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STATISTICS GLOSSARY & CONCEPTS

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Median vs Average: Median is a kind of average--it is simply how the "middle" of a group is performing. So, in NFL terms, the median Yds per Carry is simply measuring how the 16th/17th best teams are rushing. In the world of Madden where highs can be very high and lows can be very low, Median often works better as a way to gauge how your run game is performing, because it's not skewed much at all by a single monster run game or a single terrible run game.

[Aestis]

Re: Slider Makers: The "Master Toolkit" Slider Knowledge Resource

Two challenges for folks who claim either of the below:

1. Does anyone have real evidence that any slider is actually reversed?

"I felt like I got sacked more when I dropped PBK" is not evidence.



2. Does anyone have real evidence that penalty sliders affect gameplay whatsoever?

I've read a number of claims from a few slider folks saying that penalty sliders not only affect gameplay, but that they are the best way to change gameplay. When I moved a couple of penalty sliders in our 32-man league (offsides, roughing the passer) by huge amounts (50+) after reading a popular slider maker claim it made a huge difference on gameplay, it changed absolutely nothing in our weekly performance metrics. Sacks, passing, etc. remained unchanged.

[tommycoa]

Re: Slider Makers: The "Master Toolkit" Slider Knowledge Resource

Two challenges for folks who claim either of the below:

1. Does anyone have real evidence that any slider is actually reversed?

"I felt like I got sacked more when I dropped PBK" is not evidence.



2. Does anyone have real evidence that penalty sliders affect gameplay whatsoever?

I've read a number of claims from a few slider folks saying that penalty sliders not only affect gameplay, but that they are the best way to change gameplay. When I moved a couple of penalty sliders in our 32-man league (offsides, roughing the passer) by huge amounts (50+) after reading a popular slider maker claim it made a huge difference on gameplay, it changed absolutely nothing in our weekly performance metrics. Sacks, passing, etc. remained unchanged.

Penalty’s don’t seem (keyword) to have that great of an effect on gameplay compared to the past. This rendition, it seems like only defensive holding has an effect on the ebb and flow of the pass game. JoshC may have evidence of this. He applied it to his default sliders and one of the few things he altered, along with defensive PI at 45. He’s got d holding at 40 and these lower numbers “feel” better than the higher ones.

It’s hard to give evidence to something that effects something like ebb and flow of the game. The game just feels looser with d holding at 40.

[Aestis]

Re: Slider Makers: The "Master Toolkit" Slider Knowledge Resource

Penalty’s don’t seem (keyword) to have that great of an effect on gameplay compared to the past. This rendition, it seems like only defensive holding has an effect on the ebb and flow of the pass game. JoshC may have evidence of this. He applied it to his default sliders and one of the few things he altered, along with defensive PI at 45. He’s got d holding at 40 and these lower numbers “feel” better than the higher ones.

It’s hard to give evidence to something that effects something like ebb and flow of the game. The game just feels looser with d holding at 40.

You're right, if something were to affect, say, the smoothness of gameplay including more intuitive animations, for example--but in a way that doesn't really materially change outcomes--it would be very tough to see that in game data.

But perhaps video evidence could illustrate the difference, if anyone has ever done or seen anything there. I purposely use the term "evidence" over "proof" for stuff like this. Just curious to know what's out there, and I feel like a lot of other folks are, too.

And if the answer to this question is "No evidence exists, but some folks feel strongly it makes a difference." Then fair enough. I'm not even saying that makes anyone wrong. Just would like to start digging into the claims to see what's based on feeling and what isn't.

Because a lot of people have feelings about gameplay that is polar opposite with a given slider. "Game just feels so much better with lower threshold" vs "Game just feels so much better with higher threshold."

I would never deign to tell someone how they should feel about a slider or gameplay style. If that's all penalties boils down to, that's cool. But I'm curious if anyone has anything more.