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Old 01-02-2018, 11:19 AM   #17
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

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Originally Posted by charter04
The disruption of the slider in the game it self says lower the slider to have more fumbles and raise it to have less. So if it works as itís supposed to in the game lower =higher chance of fumbles


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That seems to be the case pre 1.08, but if we consider the brace hit trait to be included for every runner, then the animation that needs to be triggered is one in which they disregard covering up. I've found higher value to create this animation, and also create more chances for fumbles.

May have to give it another test though, and see what other animations can come through when the brace trait kicks in.
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:23 AM   #18
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

OMG...this once again proves that the way this stuff is coded and entangled means the devs prob don't even know what does what! Incredible.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:20 PM   #19
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

I tried creating a thread a couple weeks ago to start documenting evidence-based knowledge about all kinds of slider questions but nobody responded.

In particular I was curious if anyone has ever seen or posted one shred of evidence that penalties affect gameplay. I know some people believe they do and they may be right, but I'm curious to know if this is based on anything other than belief/placebo.

Personally, I track stats pretty comprehensively for my 32-man league. Thus I can tell you certain sliders do make a difference, based on league-wide stats going slightly down or slightly up in ways that are literally impossible to eyeball in a given game or a given 4-5 games. No human can tell the difference between league-wide 4.0 YPC and league-wide 4.3 YPC, because you'll have games of teams averaging 2.1, 4.9, 3.8, 7.4, etc. It's all over the place, so when I see guys in slider threads writing stuff like "I only averaged 2.5 ypc that game, so I gave RBK a bump," I half laugh and half shake my head. That's just variance and you can't eyeball it from a handful of games.

This is also why I'm highly dubious of penalty sliders. I'm very open to it, but I've yet to see anyone post anything other than "trust me" or "see for yourself." To me this screams of placebo & confirmation bias. When I moved a couple penalty sliders that supposedly make huge impacts on the pass rush from ~60 to 0, I saw zero difference in sack rates or pass success metrics.
So maybe it only affects HUM vs CPU games and not HUM vs HUM, or maybe I'm missing something that someone else has seen.

Most of all, the mistake I see is guys setting up a very limited controlled situation, in practice mode no less, with a specific type of play, and observing no difference in a very specific AI reaction, thus declaring the slider makes no difference. Sliders don't always change what we want them to change, but that doesn't mean they have no impact.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:46 PM   #20
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

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Originally Posted by capa
OMG...this once again proves that the way this stuff is coded and entangled means the devs prob don't even know what does what! Incredible.
I honestly believe that to be the case. Sounds like they dont really stray away from default all pro 6 minute qtrs which is mind boggling to me. Then again I dont think there trying to replicate real life football.
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Old 01-02-2018, 06:48 PM   #21
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
I tried creating a thread a couple weeks ago to start documenting evidence-based knowledge about all kinds of slider questions but nobody responded.

In particular I was curious if anyone has ever seen or posted one shred of evidence that penalties affect gameplay. I know some people believe they do and they may be right, but I'm curious to know if this is based on anything other than belief/placebo.

Personally, I track stats pretty comprehensively for my 32-man league. Thus I can tell you certain sliders do make a difference, based on league-wide stats going slightly down or slightly up in ways that are literally impossible to eyeball in a given game or a given 4-5 games. No human can tell the difference between league-wide 4.0 YPC and league-wide 4.3 YPC, because you'll have games of teams averaging 2.1, 4.9, 3.8, 7.4, etc. It's all over the place, so when I see guys in slider threads writing stuff like "I only averaged 2.5 ypc that game, so I gave RBK a bump," I half laugh and half shake my head. That's just variance and you can't eyeball it from a handful of games.

This is also why I'm highly dubious of penalty sliders. I'm very open to it, but I've yet to see anyone post anything other than "trust me" or "see for yourself." To me this screams of placebo & confirmation bias. When I moved a couple penalty sliders that supposedly make huge impacts on the pass rush from ~60 to 0, I saw zero difference in sack rates or pass success metrics.
So maybe it only affects HUM vs CPU games and not HUM vs HUM, or maybe I'm missing something that someone else has seen.

Most of all, the mistake I see is guys setting up a very limited controlled situation, in practice mode no less, with a specific type of play, and observing no difference in a very specific AI reaction, thus declaring the slider makes no difference. Sliders don't always change what we want them to change, but that doesn't mean they have no impact.
I dont think its all placebo affect at times. Im pretty sure human vs human is straight up with no boosting by the AI. Unlike All Madden hum vs cpu. So results will vary for sacks vs Cpu

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Old 01-02-2018, 07:14 PM   #22
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

OK Aestis, I'll bite

This is how I can most simply articulate it....the penalty sliders trigger animations...if you've ever seen a holding, a facemask, a DPI, etc. you've seen what they do with your own eyes.

Take that a step further...what is gameplay? It is a series of animations. If any slider changes the rate at which certain animations occur, what have you done? By definition: you've changed the gameplay. Change the animations, you change the gameplay.

When penalty animations trigger, they go through the player's penalty trait (which determines if it is called or not). This is realistic in the sense that uncalled penalties happen all the time (both in real life and in Madden). The problem is that raising the penalty sliders work in triggering more of those animations, but they don't necessarily result in more calls (likely due to the penalty traits).

If guys on the line are grabbing and holding more often (i.e. maybe you've raised the holding slider or maybe one of the block sliders)...that will have an affect on the manner in which the lineplay is shaped. Whether this has a dramatic influence on the overall manner in which your game plays out is very much dependent on the rest of your sliders.

Most people are more worried about the end-result rather than how they get there....penalty slider effects are typically more about the "how you get there" rather than the "end-result".

There are other thoughts out there about slider effects (gameplay and penalty) on CPU tendencies and so on. I have my own thoughts...but now we REALLY begin to get into the "just trust me"....I'm not going to do that here
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Old 01-02-2018, 11:02 PM   #23
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
OK Aestis, I'll bite

This is how I can most simply articulate it....the penalty sliders trigger animations...if you've ever seen a holding, a facemask, a DPI, etc. you've seen what they do with your own eyes.

Take that a step further...what is gameplay? It is a series of animations. If any slider changes the rate at which certain animations occur, what have you done? By definition: you've changed the gameplay. Change the animations, you change the gameplay.

When penalty animations trigger, they go through the player's penalty trait (which determines if it is called or not). This is realistic in the sense that uncalled penalties happen all the time (both in real life and in Madden). The problem is that raising the penalty sliders work in triggering more of those animations, but they don't necessarily result in more calls (likely due to the penalty traits).

If guys on the line are grabbing and holding more often (i.e. maybe you've raised the holding slider or maybe one of the block sliders)...that will have an affect on the manner in which the lineplay is shaped. Whether this has a dramatic influence on the overall manner in which your game plays out is very much dependent on the rest of your sliders.

Most people are more worried about the end-result rather than how they get there....penalty slider effects are typically more about the "how you get there" rather than the "end-result".

There are other thoughts out there about slider effects (gameplay and penalty) on CPU tendencies and so on. I have my own thoughts...but now we REALLY begin to get into the "just trust me"....I'm not going to do that here
Yup. What Josh said.

Personally, for me, now you take min speed threshold into account, and the animations stick out even more.
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Old 01-03-2018, 08:35 AM   #24
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aestis
I tried creating a thread a couple weeks ago to start documenting evidence-based knowledge about all kinds of slider questions but nobody responded.



In particular I was curious if anyone has ever seen or posted one shred of evidence that penalties affect gameplay. I know some people believe they do and they may be right, but I'm curious to know if this is based on anything other than belief/placebo.



Personally, I track stats pretty comprehensively for my 32-man league. Thus I can tell you certain sliders do make a difference, based on league-wide stats going slightly down or slightly up in ways that are literally impossible to eyeball in a given game or a given 4-5 games. No human can tell the difference between league-wide 4.0 YPC and league-wide 4.3 YPC, because you'll have games of teams averaging 2.1, 4.9, 3.8, 7.4, etc. It's all over the place, so when I see guys in slider threads writing stuff like "I only averaged 2.5 ypc that game, so I gave RBK a bump," I half laugh and half shake my head. That's just variance and you can't eyeball it from a handful of games.



This is also why I'm highly dubious of penalty sliders. I'm very open to it, but I've yet to see anyone post anything other than "trust me" or "see for yourself." To me this screams of placebo & confirmation bias. When I moved a couple penalty sliders that supposedly make huge impacts on the pass rush from ~60 to 0, I saw zero difference in sack rates or pass success metrics.

So maybe it only affects HUM vs CPU games and not HUM vs HUM, or maybe I'm missing something that someone else has seen.



Most of all, the mistake I see is guys setting up a very limited controlled situation, in practice mode no less, with a specific type of play, and observing no difference in a very specific AI reaction, thus declaring the slider makes no difference. Sliders don't always change what we want them to change, but that doesn't mean they have no impact.


Totally agree. My whole perspective changed when I started doing sliders for online cams and looking at league wide 32 man league stats. Much easier to see affects of things with that many games to go on. One week you can see 12-16 user games as a test.




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