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Old 01-03-2018, 08:44 AM   #25
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

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Originally Posted by JoshC1977
OK Aestis, I'll bite

This is how I can most simply articulate it....the penalty sliders trigger animations...if you've ever seen a holding, a facemask, a DPI, etc. you've seen what they do with your own eyes.

Take that a step further...what is gameplay? It is a series of animations. If any slider changes the rate at which certain animations occur, what have you done? By definition: you've changed the gameplay. Change the animations, you change the gameplay.

When penalty animations trigger, they go through the player's penalty trait (which determines if it is called or not). This is realistic in the sense that uncalled penalties happen all the time (both in real life and in Madden). The problem is that raising the penalty sliders work in triggering more of those animations, but they don't necessarily result in more calls (likely due to the penalty traits).

If guys on the line are grabbing and holding more often (i.e. maybe you've raised the holding slider or maybe one of the block sliders)...that will have an affect on the manner in which the lineplay is shaped. Whether this has a dramatic influence on the overall manner in which your game plays out is very much dependent on the rest of your sliders.

Most people are more worried about the end-result rather than how they get there....penalty slider effects are typically more about the "how you get there" rather than the "end-result".

There are other thoughts out there about slider effects (gameplay and penalty) on CPU tendencies and so on. I have my own thoughts...but now we REALLY begin to get into the "just trust me"....I'm not going to do that here


The problem I have with a lot of the, main menu settings affect cfm or penalties affecting gameplay, is that there are just too many variables to really do a fair test of those theories. Yes what you described is affecting gameplay of course but a penalty affects it too.

I canít confirm or deny these theories because I donít think they can really be properly tested. So thatís why there is not really ďproofĒ or video evidence.

Iím not really sure how these things could really even be tested. I guess editing rosters would be a start. Give everyone the same ratings and traits then test. I just donít know


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Old 01-03-2018, 06:53 PM   #26
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
OK Aestis, I'll bite

This is how I can most simply articulate it....the penalty sliders trigger animations...if you've ever seen a holding, a facemask, a DPI, etc. you've seen what they do with your own eyes.

Take that a step further...what is gameplay? It is a series of animations. If any slider changes the rate at which certain animations occur, what have you done? By definition: you've changed the gameplay. Change the animations, you change the gameplay.

When penalty animations trigger, they go through the player's penalty trait (which determines if it is called or not). This is realistic in the sense that uncalled penalties happen all the time (both in real life and in Madden). The problem is that raising the penalty sliders work in triggering more of those animations, but they don't necessarily result in more calls (likely due to the penalty traits).

If guys on the line are grabbing and holding more often (i.e. maybe you've raised the holding slider or maybe one of the block sliders)...that will have an affect on the manner in which the lineplay is shaped. Whether this has a dramatic influence on the overall manner in which your game plays out is very much dependent on the rest of your sliders.

Most people are more worried about the end-result rather than how they get there....penalty slider effects are typically more about the "how you get there" rather than the "end-result".

There are other thoughts out there about slider effects (gameplay and penalty) on CPU tendencies and so on. I have my own thoughts...but now we REALLY begin to get into the "just trust me"....I'm not going to do that here

First off, thanks for the response--constructive debate between guys with extensive but different experience can only help the slider community in my eyes.

Everything you wrote makes sense and seems logical & reasonable. Only have two issues:

1) While I find myself believing everything you're typing, it's still "just trust me." I'd be curious to see any video evidence that *uncalled* penalty animations trigger more often in a way that influences gameplay & outcomes in any material way. I'm not asking for incontrovertible proof or an infallible lab experiment here, just some evidence that this is happening.

Because..

2) I have seen ZERO difference with my own eyes or (far more importantly) in league stats across a bunch of games with a few of the penalty sliders. So for all the animation explanation you can talk around, if one side of the mouth is saying, "Well it may not affect outcomes in a meaningful manner," while the other side is saying "Penalties have [the largest / a large] impact on gameplay"... then something just isn't adding up.

If you're telling us, per your last paragraphs, that penalties are more about cosmetic realism than making much of a difference on outcomes, fair enough and I can respect tahthat. I feel that is not the message many penalty slider proponents are advancing.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:40 PM   #27
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

I'm no slider guru, but I'm definitely a football junkie, and I've been playing offline for 20 years. For years, I made my own sliders and had no problems. As time passed, it got harder and harder to craft a set. One year, I started to really test incremental changes, and noticed that the numbers and results didn't make any sense. I voiced my findings with some on here, and realized that a large group of people were seeing the exact same things I was seeing. We're talking dozens of different observations over the course of years of playing the game.

It certainly seems like online and head to head operate differently under the hood than offline CFM, so that could be one reason we have such different observations. But I definitely agree with those who see "unintended consequences" when making various slider changes. I literally haven't touched a gameplay slider this year because of the effects on animations and tendencies, the latter being the most frustrating IMO.

Haven't the Devs even commented on these issues at times over the years? I don't have Twitter, but thought I had heard that before.

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Old 01-03-2018, 07:48 PM   #28
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennypowers88
I'm no slider guru, but I'm definitely a football junkie, and I've been playing offline for 20 years. For years, I made my own sliders and had no problems. As time passed, it got harder and harder to craft a set. One year, I started to really test incremental changes, and noticed that the numbers and results didn't make any sense. I voiced my findings with some on here, and realized that a large group of people were seeing the exact same things I was seeing. We're talking dozens of different observations over the course of years of playing the game.

It certainly seems like online and head to head operate differently under the hood than offline CFM, so that could be one reason we have such different observations. But I definitely agree with those who see "unintended consequences" when making various slider changes. I literally haven't touched a gameplay slider this year because of the effects on animations and tendencies, the latter being the most frustrating IMO.

Haven't the Devs even commented on these issues at times over the years? I don't have Twitter, but thought I had heard that before.

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Yeah I agree. I dont think you can really compare a 32 human league with a offline single player cfm. Totally different animal.
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Old 01-03-2018, 07:48 PM   #29
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by kennypowers88
I'm no slider guru, but I'm definitely a football junkie, and I've been playing offline for 20 years. For years, I made my own sliders and had no problems. As time passed, it got harder and harder to craft a set. One year, I started to really test incremental changes, and noticed that the numbers and results didn't make any sense. I voiced my findings with some on here, and realized that a large group of people were seeing the exact same things I was seeing. We're talking dozens of different observations over the course of years of playing the game.

It certainly seems like online and head to head operate differently under the hood than offline CFM, so that could be one reason we have such different observations. But I definitely agree with those who see "unintended consequences" when making various slider changes. I literally haven't touched a gameplay slider this year because of the effects on animations and tendencies, the latter being the most frustrating IMO.

Haven't the Devs even commented on these issues at times over the years? I don't have Twitter, but thought I had heard that before.

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Yes, Clint confirmed earlier this year (well....2017) about the penalty sliders triggering animations (he was referring specifically about the defensive holding slider at the time).
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Old 01-03-2018, 09:32 PM   #30
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Problem is you simply can't isolate slider values. That's the fundamental understanding behind slider creating in the first place. You can't isolate Penalties and expect an animation to occur. It has to be paired with something else in the gameplay slider + threshold.

All sliders are relative. That's why it's not about theories and lab testing in practice mode, etc. It's about in-game and testing in-game, with all the variables to the formula in place.

This is why those who want to lab test each individual value get frustrated because they can't recreate animations, or scenarios, that should out of context produce fantastic results.
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Old 01-04-2018, 09:09 AM   #31
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Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

This whole convo is why we have nothing concrete. I donít think itís possible with how Madden sliders are. Itís mostly theory and opinion. Itís been that way a while.

I wish the sliders were completely recoded and all did exactly what they should at the rate they should. And add a lot more of them. Until then every thread looking for real verifiable answers will be out of luck.


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Old 01-04-2018, 12:24 PM   #32
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Re: Serious Question For the Slider Guru's here

Quote:
Originally Posted by charter04
This whole convo is why we have nothing concrete. I donít think itís possible with how Madden sliders are. Itís mostly theory and opinion. Itís been that way a while.

I wish the sliders were completely recoded and all did exactly what they should at the rate they should. And add a lot more of them. Until then every thread looking for real verifiable answers will be out of luck.


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This really should be something we push for. Rather than a community all asking for different things, how about we all ask for a more customizable game so that we can cater it to our needs?

Sliders, penalties, auto subs, and all "features" already in the game need to be fine tuned and redone if necessary. Because no matter what your opinion is on exactly how these sliders work, I think we can all agree they don't work well enough.

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