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JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

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Old 10-19-2018, 01:10 PM   #713
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

I played one game last night post patch, which felt strange. I can't really explain why, other than the one thing i noticed is olinemen a couple times either falsestarting or jumping off the line a millisecond after the ball is snapped. No penalty called.

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Last edited by RayRay412; 10-19-2018 at 01:13 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 02:21 PM   #714
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
Several things had bugged me all year with Madden:
  • Stretch plays were a bit too overpowered as linemen were CONSISTENTLY in front of the defenders.
  • Screen plays rarely worked well for CPU due to D-line catching up
  • Very little back and forth push between lines

Those are all symptoms of thresh being too high and the reason why I commented last night that I had been pondering a lower thresh. With the patch "stretching" the values out a bit, I am hopeful that some of these issues are mitigated a bit.

My concern: did they go the other way and make it too "open"? Examples of things I will be looking for include:
  • On stretch plays, if the o-linemen struggle to EVER get in front of the back to set up blocks (i.e. they consistently clump together instead of getting out in front), then the new default value is too low. Barring one having a really fast RB, he shouldn't be able to outrun everyone to the edge.
  • Is line play too "loose" (i.e. is it too easy to shed blocks)?
  • Is interior running too "easy" for both sides due to LB pursuit being nerfed?

You'll note that I really focus on the run game when making observations about thresh. What I have found (for me anyways) over the years is that it is much easier to hone-in on the thresh value looking at run game dynamics. There are just way too many ratings involved in the pass game to definitively say that thresh is a problem.

I toyed with the patch last night and pure default felt a bit weird. I did fire-up the OP (no assists on) and I thought it felt better (which is not surprising). Thresh is a super tricky setting to assess though, so I am going to proceed cautiously. I want to run some more tests at both default and with the OP. Once I have confirmed which base setup (i.e. which injury setup) we'll roll with, then we can really scrutinize the threshold (looking at some of those key markers I mentioned above) and see if any adjustments are needed. Note: I'm really not interested in going straight to 75 thresh and mimicking what we had previously; I think we can improve upon it.

I am going to be unpacking a lot this weekend as I finally moved into my new home yesterday. However, the PS4 IS set up so I will get some gameplay in this weekend for sure.

One final thing: I 100% understand the frustration with patches. But moving forward, I really want to keep things focused on how we adapt. If you want to vent about "patch frustration" (which, again, is 100% understandable), please utilize the patch thread in the main forum to do so.

I'm not a fan of putting numbers as a result, but sometimes they speak for themselves: I played 3 games all default after the patch and I scored 148 points.


The main problem with lower speed thresholds is that man coverage simply disappear. And CPU plays a lot of man coverage.
I used a lot of man cvg, too, but I adapt. The CPU doesn't.


Coming to your concerns:


- stretch plays: this year you can't look at type of running, but specific plays. Some plays have good blocking schemes, some others don't. I have two specific stretch plays with and average of 4+YPP, the others just don't work, no matter what.

Moreover, I think stretch plays are zone plays and that means there is a preplay check on finesse run rating to make it work. If you run stretch with tight ends on the edge, you need finesse run tight end, who are extremely hard to find.

And you have to setup blockers.
All that said, it's not a question of speed, it's a question of blocking ratings: strength, run block, run block finesse in this case.


- screen plays: again, you need short route running. And wait as long as possible. They do work, I can assure you, they always worked with the right players.

But also in this case, some plays have a better design than others.


- push between lines: that's strength, you need similar strength to see back and forward. Maybe there's a bit more of pancakes now, but that's it.


So, personally I'll follow dev suggestion, come back to set I previously used with 75 speed threshold as defense is far too weak at 50.

Last edited by TizziBoy; 10-21-2018 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 03:03 PM   #715
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

FYI....my points are mainly centered around how the CPU executes plays; users can adapt....but the animations still need to make sense. If this were a normal year for me, I would've likely explored decreasing thresh a long while ago.

Specific replies to your points below....

Quote:
Originally Posted by TizziBoy
The main problem with higher speed thresholds is that man coverage simply disappear. And CPU plays a lot of man coverage.
I used a lot of man cvg, too, but I adapt. The CPU doesn't.
Inferring that you mean "lower" speed thresholds....but yes, that can be problematic if it is too low.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TizziBoy
- stretch plays: this year you can't look at type of running, but specific plays. Some plays have good blocking schemes, some others don't. I have two specific stretch plays with and average of 4+YPP, the others just don't work, no matter what.

Moreover, I think stretch plays are zone plays and that means there is a preplay check on finesse run rating to make it work. If you run stretch with tight ends on the edge, you need finesse run tight end, who are extremely hard to find.

And you have to setup blockers.
All that said, it's not a question of speed, it's a question of blocking ratings: strength, run block, run block finesse in this case.
All of this is correct, but it isn't what I am talking about. I'm talking about the timing of where the blockers are relative to the RB. The RB gets the ball from the QB and starts his run. Pre-patch, the pulling linemen would be nearly perfectly set up to the stretch side. Basically, the blocking would be set up BEFORE the back even got the ball....the animations are out of sync. Now, the opposite issue if the new thresh is indeed too low....the RB would get the ball and the entire O-line would still be stuck in the box (forcing the back to have to run outside around the blocking WR with no option to cut up in the middle if contained). Ideal scenario when thresh is set well: blocking is getting set up on the outside AS the runner is starting his move outside....50/50 on whether the blocks will set up in-time (making it a contextual play).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TizziBoy
- screen plays: again, you need short route running. And wait as long as possible. They do work, I can assure you, they always worked with the right players.

But also in this case, some plays have a better design than others.
Again, talking about a de-sync issue. D-linemen (pre-patch) were on-top of the RB nearly 100% of screen plays as the RB would get caught in his blockers. I have zero issues with the defenders occasionally blowing it up, but when the speed separation is that small, you get some really bad looking block setups.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TizziBoy

- push between lines: that's strength, you need similar strength to see back and forward. Maybe there's a bit more of pancakes now, but that's it.
Yes, but pre-patch, there was little actual movement in the interactions, even in cases where there was a significant discrepancy. With the speed/accel values separated more with the thresh changes, we're seeing more actual physical movement....which is a beautiful thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TizziBoy
So, personally I'll follow dev suggestion, come back to set I previously used with 75 speed threshold as defense is far too weak at 50.
Your choice of course!

Truth be told, I strongly suspect 50 is now too low as well; but going back to the way it was (by using 75) doesn't make a lot of sense to me either. I suspect that there is an intermediate value that will play better overall.

Last edited by JoshC1977; 10-19-2018 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 10-19-2018, 04:50 PM   #716
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

I guess I explain myself better with pictures.


I recorded some plays. Sorry for terrible quality, but I can't screen capture with my notebook while playing at hi res, I'm sure you can understand.
All plays are at 75 threshold, all pro, everything default. First 3 I used the assist, so it should be exactly he way the CPU plays, last one I'm on defense.



Outside hand-off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI07BO9POBw
To me, this is just a perfect-played, perfect blocked stretch play. Nothing to complain.


Outside hand-off:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojg8p_eDhwk
Now, there's nothing wrong in those blocks. But the play is designed so poor that no matter what, no matter the defense, the cpu will never gain yards with this one and neither would I, apart from using some perfectly timed series of moves.
And this is the main reason for the CPU using so many moves: it tries to counter a bad designed play.


Screen plays:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amG_Dzo4oRE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=spcb9lR63LQ


What's the secret here:
1- HB with high short route running
2- facing a blitz


If the cpu HB is not good in route running and/or there's no pressure on the QB, the HB screen doesn't work.


Neither cases are a question of speed IMHO.
Now, if we want to try a better value than the previous one, which SHOULD be 75 (let's say I don't trust patch notes 100%), while still having man coverage and pass protection and the CPU QB not scrambling around like an idiot wandering in the field waiting for all the blocks to break, I'm with you.
But to be honest I find very hard to base such a decision on these plays, unfortunately it takes so many tests this year...
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Old 10-22-2018, 09:34 AM   #717
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

This may be a bit lengthy...so forgive me....

The latest patch introduced a revised threshold scale; we all know that. EA made the right choice here IMO in lowering the default threshold; the problem, they took it too far the other way.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE many of the things that the lower threshold has brought out. There is a back-and-forth surge between the lines, runners have a burst, and with the wider separation, CPU QBs are more effective, etc.

The downside is that speed/accel ratings are now too dominant at default. Pulling blockers barely have time to set up and in many cases, the best solution is to just run wide of it. Speed receivers with even a modicum of deep route running and catching can be brutally good. Blocking dynamics are way too loose...making it easier to shed blocks. It's also led to some really funky animations and warping (as low thresh is prone to do).

Now, when the patch notes popped-up, the devs said "go back to 75 if you want the old 50". We can do that...sure....and be faced with the same old issues we've had all year. The question, can we find an intermediate value that gives us the good of the lower threshold while balancing out the downsides?

The answer...yes!

After testing out both default and other values, I believe that a threshold of 65 achieves the balance that we are looking for when using default gameplay sliders.

RBs are hitting the holes as blocks are being formed. Why is this important? Because it adds dynamicism to plays. Sometimes the block gets there in time, sometimes it doesn't. The runners are reading the blocks that are being formed and if they change direction, it makes sense. Tacklers aren't always in optimal position to make the play, which has allowed many other tackle dynamics/animations to play out. For lack of a better word, everything is "in sync" and it shows the beauty of RPM.

The passing game shows the same level of dynamicism. I'm not noticing the exploitable speed boost I was at 50 thresh. I've been seeing a lot more diving catch attempts (offensive and defensive players). There is a tad more separation, but barring a major mis-match, the defender is still within tackle range. BUT, that little added separation has made CPU QBs far more dangerous. They can rip you apart (and to be honest....it's refreshing...I haven't felt that all year).

One thing I initially wasn't 100% happy with; pass blocking can look a bit static at times. As I thought about it though, I was running a lot of vanilla base 4-man rushes...now THAT makes sense. You can switch to aggressive pass rush situationally now without feeling "guilty" about it. Blitzing is now more of a necessity if you're getting killed by vet QBs...with the trade-offs that come with blitzes. But even aside from those things, sometimes shifting around personnel to create ratings-specific mis-matches on the line can work beautifully.

I have updated the OP with the finalized setup and it is below. As always, if you'd like to provide feedback, please follow the OP to the letter.

A couple of house-keeping notes:
  • for you tinkerers (thinking of you mpd and tizzi ), tread LIGHTLY with injury adjustments. Even at the default 40 (MM/CFM), it was very imbalanced. I'd honestly give 50 a really long burn.
  • I have removed the option to turn on switch assist....it is no longer needed.
  • I have not tested on All Madden; to be honest, I'm not sure I will as I really like the CPU improvements here.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:40 AM   #718
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

I was anticipating this update, thanks, Josh.

I was seriously going to start using 60 for thresh.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:49 AM   #719
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by roadman
I was anticipating this update, thanks, Josh.

I was seriously going to start using 60 for thresh.
Yeah, I tried 60 as well and it still was a bit off (70 was a bit off in the other direction). I clicked into 65 thresh and lots of little things started happening animation-wise.

Lot's of "if this had happened a split-second sooner/later" events with this....something I have not seen this year.
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Old 10-22-2018, 10:51 AM   #720
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Re: JoshC1977's Madden 19 Sliders (for CFM Only)

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoshC1977
Yeah, I tried 60 as well and it still was a bit off (70 was a bit off in the other direction). I clicked into 65 thresh and lots of little things started happening animation-wise.

Lot's of "if this had happened a split-second sooner/later" events with this....something I have not seen this year.
I know when I tried the new default of 50, I scored 31 pts in the game and that rarely happens, so, I knew the new default wouldn't last long with me.
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