Did EA/Tiburon stumble into another generation?

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I remember you posting this summer about the game not really moving in a direction to satisfy the offline sim oriented franchise gamer. Now that there's a product hitting the street, do you think you can elaborate? In my view, it's the offline or solo franchise gamer who is most focused on sim and gameplay quality versus the CPU. Making that crowd happy is the real test of any sports game's worth. They may not be the majority, but a game can't become great without that crowd being enthusiastic. I think the NBA2k series makes this clear, as does MLB The Show. Thanks for posting your comment.

Sigh - I really don't like reading comments like this one because it couldn't be more inaccurate. Just because someone plays "online" doesn't mean they desire ANY LESS of a realistic simulation. I am an exclusive online league player because I enjoy playing against a thinking, dynamic opponent both on and off of the field. However, I want the same things you want. Football, not Madden. Whether you play the game online or not, football needs to be SIMULATED to the best of its ability. Instead, we get "Madden" - where we have changing of blitz angles, dropping lineman into spies and contains, and all sorts of other hot garbage to trick the AI and generate pressure or whatever.

The rest of the sports game genre is in 2014 mode, while football is still in 2005.

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

Sigh - I really don't like reading comments like this one because it couldn't be more inaccurate. Just because someone plays "online" doesn't mean they desire ANY LESS of a realistic simulation. I am an exclusive online league player because I enjoy playing against a thinking, dynamic opponent both on and off of the field. However, I want the same things you want. Football, not Madden. Whether you play the game online or not, football needs to be SIMULATED to the best of its ability. Instead, we get "Madden" - where we have changing of blitz angles, dropping lineman into spies and contains, and all sorts of other hot garbage to trick the AI and generate pressure or whatever. The rest of the sports game genre is in 2014 mode, while football is still in 2005.

Fair enough, I didn't mean to offend, and I have zero interest in the old online versus offline arguments.

I concede your point, and my comment was not even essential to the overall point I was making, with which I think you agree.

My bad.

[rootofalleli]

Quote: Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

Sigh - I really don't like reading comments like this one because it couldn't be more inaccurate. Just because someone plays "online" doesn't mean they desire ANY LESS of a realistic simulation. I am an exclusive online league player because I enjoy playing against a thinking, dynamic opponent both on and off of the field. However, I want the same things you want. Football, not Madden. Whether you play the game online or not, football needs to be SIMULATED to the best of its ability. Instead, we get "Madden" - where we have changing of blitz angles, dropping lineman into spies and contains, and all sorts of other hot garbage to trick the AI and generate pressure or whatever. The rest of the sports game genre is in 2014 mode, while football is still in 2005.

It doesn't sound like he's insulting anyone. Of course you can try for a sim game in a multiplayer online league. The point is more that if you play offline/solo (online + solo is the same in this context) EA can't benefit from other users covering for weak AI. In a solo franchise the burden is 100% on the game to deliver, not on other players.

Sneaky EA still tries to get around that by making 32 team control a "feature" for "control freaks" like us. Simply put, a lot of games rely on players to do what the developers won't. Sometimes it's OK - people like playing shooters and RTS and sports games head to head with trash talk and quick matches. I've seen some games on Steam with early access that were pvp only until the game was finished. In Madden's case, the game is never finished, so you HAVE to rely on pvp to feel like you're not playing checkers against your nephew. That's the problem I think Lorenzo was getting at - it's nothing to do with what online players want.

[kc10785]

Side note I just called my friend who is a gamer like me around the age of 28 to tell him how unimpressive these videos are because he was believing the hype and I almost got into an argument with him because he didn't want to believe one word coming out my mouth. All I can do is laugh but this just shows no matter how much we complain we got millions of people like my friend that is getting the game regardless what EA puts on the shelves.

Sent From The Computer Lab at Professors X School of The Gifted

[LorenzoDC]

Quote: Originally Posted by rootofalleli

It doesn't sound like he's insulting anyone. Of course you can try for a sim game in a multiplayer online league. The point is more that if you play offline/solo (online + solo is the same in this context) EA can't benefit from other users covering for weak AI. In a solo franchise the burden is 100% on the game to deliver, not on other players. Sneaky EA still tries to get around that by making 32 team control a "feature" for "control freaks" like us. Simply put, a lot of games rely on players to do what the developers won't. Sometimes it's OK - people like playing shooters and RTS and sports games head to head with trash talk and quick matches. I've seen some games on Steam with early access that were pvp only until the game was finished. In Madden's case, the game is never finished, so you HAVE to rely on pvp to feel like you're not playing checkers against your nephew. That's the problem I think Lorenzo was getting at - it's nothing to do with what online players want.

Yes, this.

Thanks.

[kjcheezhead]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

"Stumble" implies that what happened was an accident, so I say no, they have done exactly what they intended. I do believe however it was the wrong choice in terms of having a better game and long term revenue but I'm sure they don't care as long as they make money now. I have stated before that it's easy to presume that because a company is profitable they consistently make good decisions but that's not the case and there are many examples that show this. In reference to EA Football, they seem to keep making short sighted decisions for profit, while hurting their brand, ie NCAA Football. I don't know the ins and outs of Tiburon's finances but it begs to reason that whenever sales dip they just cutback on investment to offset that and keep it profitable. I would presume there was a bare minimum spent on next-gen M25 across the board, development, marketing, etc, so no matter how low the sales may seem to us, EA Tiburon will be in the black and on schedule. After Christmas and into next year when more gamers presumably have new consoles, I expect to see the same ole marketing hype that has been Madden's trademark current gen and the game continue to be what it is. All that said, I expect that cutback in investment to include the NFL exclusive, so I don't think they'll be renewing that. Catch 22 about that is, imo, when the NFL exclusive ends, EA Tiburon will spin that as if it's evidence that they are truly committed to making Madden better and welcome competition. Considering it's unknown how soon any other studio would be willing to release a NFL game even in an open NFL license market, that still gives EA Tiburon time to run the same hustle. Hype incremental improvement and faux innovation, while still fundamentally delivering the same "Madden" experience. So in recap, no they didn't stumble, EA Tiburon has their gamers right where they want them and will continue this social experiment in marketing as long as possible. I choose to no longer be a marketing lab rat and won't be buying another Madden anytime in the foreseeable future. However I do plan to have a front row seat for the reenactment of Groundhog Day in 2014.

Well said. I don't believe they stumbled at all either. They delivered what they intended to all along. Minimal improvements to a SIM/arcade hybrid style game that always leaves fans wanting more. A port was all they had to deliver because the ps4 and xbone will sell the title this year. No need to overspend on development when you've cornered the market already.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by LorenzoDC

I remember you posting this summer about the game not really moving in a direction to satisfy the offline sim oriented franchise gamer. Now that there's a product hitting the street, do you think you can elaborate? In my view, it's the offline or solo franchise gamer who is most focused on sim and gameplay quality versus the CPU. Making that crowd happy is the real test of any sports game's worth. They may not be the majority, but a game can't become great without that crowd being enthusiastic. I think the NBA2k series makes this clear, as does MLB The Show. Thanks for posting your comment.

To elaborate on GiantBlue's post, there are likely many Madden offline gamers that couldn't careless about realism too, so it's not about offline or online but the fundamental perspective on how the AI should play. One thing that irks me most about EA Tiburon and their marketing, is that they place everything in the context of their way of doing it. I don't recall any such nonsense of a top notch AI, online and offline, being the equivalent of the game playing itself or that online capability was tantamount to tourney/freestyle play until Madden.

I agree with your main point that the game should be made to fundamentally deliver a sim experience but whether someone chooses to use the online capability or not should be irrelevant. There is really something off and skewed about gaming with regard to EA Tiburon, it seems like an odd think tank where reality is whatever they can convince their consumers it is. Not talking about you directly, just the general Jedi mind tricks that seem to be employed by EA Tiburon. It's like the studio is ran on principles right out of that book "The Secret", lol.

[MHammer113]

After watching that live feed its officially time for a madden 15 wishlist