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Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

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Old 05-22-2014, 07:52 AM   #25
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
I sure wish Madden would use a rating system like this. Maybe you can approximate that with the speed differential slider, but I doubt it.
The only way EA can replicate this is if they use real, verifiable, data instead of youtube videos. I had an interview with them for a position on their Madden team during the summer of 2011. I was not pleased with some of their questions concerning the marketing department making the final decisions on ratings. The example that Donny Moore directly spoke of was in regards to "what would you do if a suit from the marketing department told you that you had to change Larry Fitzgerald's OVR rating from 92 to 99 even though all the data you have shows he is a 92?"

My response was that I would NEVER, EVER compromise the FBG system because it simply works BETTER than the system that they are using (even if that involves people from their marketing department making calls on ratings). As you can imagine, I didn't get the job, but kept my ethos.
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Old 05-22-2014, 10:54 AM   #26
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

I think your ratings are wrong when it comes to Welker.
He is quicker than fast, without a doubt. The data might somewhat dispute that, but his play on the field doesn't. The game tape doesn't lie.

Also, creating the ratings after looking at 40 times doesn't make any sense. Do you ever see a player in that starting stance on the field? NO. That's why most GMs go by what they can see on the field. Sometimes a players game-speed is faster than their 40 says, or vice versa.
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Old 05-22-2014, 11:41 AM   #27
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

what's interesting about this is according to the 40 time to speed rating chart I have used for a long time Clowney would have 86 or 85 speed. Not 90. The chart is done using how EA used to rate incoming rookie's. Back when you could see what there 40 time was. For some reason EA overrates the speed for current guys speed a lot compared to how they had incoming players.


I personally don't mind using 40 times or other data to determine speed. I realize the idea that some guys "play faster" but, I think that has more to do with a player anticipation and other factors like route running. The problem with only going by film to determine ratings is that it can lie. Even pro scouts miss on a lot of guys.


Using data gives a good baseline and takes the personal biased out. IMO
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Old 05-22-2014, 06:35 PM   #28
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

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Originally Posted by jatiger13
I think your ratings are wrong when it comes to Welker.
He is quicker than fast, without a doubt. The data might somewhat dispute that, but his play on the field doesn't. The game tape doesn't lie.

Also, creating the ratings after looking at 40 times doesn't make any sense. Do you ever see a player in that starting stance on the field? NO. That's why most GMs go by what they can see on the field. Sometimes a players game-speed is faster than their 40 says, or vice versa.
"Quicker than Fast" is just another way to say that he is agile, possesses better balance, and uses specific moves like cuts, jukes, spins, etc. to gain separation instead of using speed. For a WR, this also includes the ability to separate via running good routes at full speed (whatever that "speed" you run it at may be). Jerry Rice, who ran a 4.59 according to Bill Walsh, was the quintessential example of using football-related skills to overcome raw speed and acceleration.

Wes Welker IS quicker than he is fast, and the data backs that up. His AGI rating in the same system is 84, while his route-running rating of 97, and BCV of 93 make him more than adequate at getting open and eluding defenders. Combine that with a 75 ELU, 80 SPM, and 82 JKM, and you have a player that won't run away from anyone, but will be able to move around in the open field enough to get yards after the catch.

When rating players you CANNOT look solely at ONE attribute like speed. You must look at how all of the attributes work symbiotically to paint the full picture. Welker has never been fast. Even on his 99 yard TD run he had to stiff arm a fast closing CB in order to score against cover 1. Note that MIA send 6 rushers against NE's 4 WR set with one TE in to block. That means only one defender for each receiver and only 1 high FS.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QVR_66QMHjo

If you watch the video, you can see the FS come flying in at a bad angle to intercept the pass right as it goes over his head. Welker makes the catch at the 18 and is caught at the 35 as he stiff arms the defender away.

I don't see great speed or acceleration there. I see a great route to get open against pretty good coverage, a solid catch, and one hell of a stiff arm. The defender was the only player he had to beat thanks to the S taking a poor angle on the pass.

This illustrates that you don't even need to be fast to get a 99 yard grab. Breaking a tackle after a guy catches you against cover 1 never hurts.
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Old 05-23-2014, 10:01 PM   #29
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

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Originally Posted by Madwolf


I seriously just lost most of my hope for Madden 15. How are they serious with that crap? I love Clowney right now, but Jesus Christ!
If you're not happy with any of the ratings, just edit it. However, if more freedom isn't granted in Connected Franchise then it won't matter because the computer will just randomly change the ratings anyway. Sometimes drastically.
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Old 05-24-2014, 06:22 AM   #30
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

@DCEBB2001

Very good points and well articulated. I didn't take into consideration the agility and route running working with those other ratings. I was just looking at his Acc and thought to myself "that rating seems a bit too low for Welker, since he is one of the best Wr when it comes to getting open."
But the way you explained it, his rating makes total sense to me now.
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Old 05-24-2014, 11:48 AM   #31
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Re: Clowney a 90 Speed for Madden

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Originally Posted by jatiger13
@DCEBB2001

Very good points and well articulated. I didn't take into consideration the agility and route running working with those other ratings. I was just looking at his Acc and thought to myself "that rating seems a bit too low for Welker, since he is one of the best Wr when it comes to getting open."
But the way you explained it, his rating makes total sense to me now.
Glad I could help.

See, this isn't anyone's fault, however, because for years EA has led everyone to believe that SPD and ACC are the only ratings that matter. This is erroneous. Do you really think that players with "game speed" are actually faster than some players? "Game Speed" is just a nice way of saying that a player is not that fast, but has enough technical skill to make up for the deficiency.

Jerry Rice was not a "fast" athlete for his position. Yet, if you go by his 40 time, he was near average amongst all WRs who ever tried out for a football team, and ran an official 40 from 1998 to 2014. The average 40 time for a WR in the period is 4.56 seconds. Rice ran a 4.59. It isn't like he ran a 4.7 or 4.8. He had near-average long speed, but always ran his routes at full speed, no matter what that speed was. THAT is what got him separation. WRs today even give away routes by not running them in and out of their breaks at full speed. Ever see a WR start chopping his feet before he breaks? That gives the route away to the defender!

Here is a great video that illustrates this from a good friend of mine at the Top Gun QB Academy in CA.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLjgZc0sYIc

This video explains exactly what I am talking about. You can be fast as hell but play slow as a WR simply because you aren't running your routes full speed. There are guys in this video who are faster than Rice, but couldn't get his separation. Why? Because they were not as technically sound.

Madden needs to reflect this. EA needs to stop making gamers think that speed is the only way to get open. Speed is such a small fraction of it. This is not track and field. However, we have the tools to accurately measure EVERY player's raw attributes. Why not use the data we have to be as accurate as possible? Because there are some people out there who believe that 40 times and the subsequent split times don't matter? If it didn't matter, teams would not pay 80k each and every year for Pro Scouting's official combine results! They would go see the medical reports, do their player interviews, and leave. People in the NFL have limited time each offseason, so why would they waste it. It makes no logical sense.

The point is that this stuff DOES matter and it allows us to scientifically quantify player attributes. Why not use it in the game when NFL front offices are using it in real life? People need to continue to wake up and not take the crap that EA gives and conditions them into believing as fact. Most of those developers have likely never even played a down of football at the college level or above anyway, so stop drinking the kool-aid.
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