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Was/has there been any franchise info released?

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Old 06-29-2014, 02:00 PM   #161
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
I really don't understand how anyone can logically take this stance when it has been confirmed time and time again by the creators of Madden, that it is intended to be a NFL simulation, ie as realistic as applicably possible. It would seem that a career mode and it's player progression system, meant to simulate NFL seasons, would fall with in that goal.
Because Madden is a video game. Simple as that.

Tiburon and all sports game developers pay a ton of lip service to "simulation", but a ton of the stuff Tiburon has added to Madden so far this year so far balances video game playability and real-life emulation; be it more user interaction on the defensive line (new DL controls/animations and success/fail UI), a better camera for playing on defense to help the user play defense better, a context-sensitive tackle assist reticle so that players more reliably attack opposing ball carriers, etc. etc.

Quote:
To the rest of the post, I think those that take issue with the XP system, mainly do so because it doesn't follow a logical path, which is essential for a progression system. I have touched on it before, as have others, that there needs to be a more targeted XP system that at least rewards applicable progress for what's actually being done.
I don't see how rewarding a user for playing a game well isn't logical. It has proven examples of effectiveness in every genre of video games. Madden's progression path is completely logical; play football well, earn XP. It's not a path entirely grounded in reality, no, but it's quite logical; reward the user for playing the video game well.

As to a more targeted XP system - I'm assuming this is one where rushing achievements earn XP which can be spent on rushing ratings, passing achievements yields XP for passing ratings, and so on - this is an additional layer of complexity which can work if communicated well to the user. I like the idea, but it needs good UI to support it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bucky60
I remain unconvinced that gameplay statistical rewards for XP progression is a good idea.
Why? How is rewarding a user for playing a video game well a bad idea? What's the more engaging alternative for the average video game user?

Quote:
When emulating something that exists, such as a sports league, and emulating a franchise in that sport, a realistic progression system is the only thing that really makes sense.
This is the central point of our butting heads and once again I could not disagree more strongly.

A primary mark of a good video game - regardless of genre - is that it engages the user and makes the user feel directly responsible for any and all progress over the course of the game. The best way to do this in a game where the user has a real-time gameplay responsibility (i.e. most modern 3D console games) is to link any and all long-game progress to success achieved during short-term core gameplay. This makes the user feel rewarded for that success and encourages the user to keep playing the game. This idea has been proven to work time and time again regardless of video game genre and as I've been over before there are countless examples throughout the history of video games, including team sports games.

Why should Madden NFL be any different? It's a video game. If I play Madden well, I want to be rewarded for it. I want the actions I perform on the field short-term to matter long-term, so that my games have context and matter. While it's fair to call the balance of the system into question, the current gameplay design of the XP progression system accomplishes exactly that.
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Old 06-29-2014, 02:40 PM   #162
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
Hey bucky60, do you think that an XP progression system can be implemented to function in a realistic way or that there would have to be two separate systems, one XP and the other realistic?

I ask because, like I mentioned in another post that no one seemed to understand and/or care for, I think it's possible to maybe have a realistic or at least real world logical, XP progression system.
Well Madden did exist without XP progression for majority of it's life span. Even when Pokemon was huge in the 90's and heavily relied upon XP, EA never implemented it. Yet years later they implement it, when it doesn't even work for a football game. XP doesn't work in sports games, yes RPG games but Madden is not a RPG game, it's a sports game that for some reason has a RPG feature in it.

Plus we did have potential before they did like they always do, remove it instead of improving upon it. So I imagine folks who don't like XP will soon be happy once EA comes up with another progression system to replace it.
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Old 06-29-2014, 02:56 PM   #163
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

@CMHooe, my general issue with the "it's a video game" premise as a defense to a lack of realism, is that it being a video game is a given. Nobody has ever disputed or been confused as to if Madden is a video game or not, the question has been is it intended to be an arcade video game, simulation video game or some hybrid video game of the two. Well those working on the game have made it very clear that their intention is for Madden to be a simulation video game, ergo having it provide an enjoyable interactive experience one would want to find in a video game, in as realistic a manner as possible and applicable.

To that point, the XP system currently does not follow in that vein, meaning offering the User a progression system they can enjoy directly interacting with AND doing so in a reasonably realistic manner. It's fine that doesn't concern or bother you personally but it clearly doesn't logically coincide with the goal of creating a simulation video game. Simulation and video game are not at odds with each other, they coexist to create a distinct genre.

If Tiburon would embrace that fact to create an XP progression system that utilizes real world logic and parameters for collection and allocation, then that would be a reasonable offering in a simulation video game.
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Old 06-29-2014, 03:05 PM   #164
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

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Originally Posted by goravens2052
Well Madden did exist without XP progression for majority of it's life span. Even when Pokemon was huge in the 90's and heavily relied upon XP, EA never implemented it. Yet years later they implement it, when it doesn't even work for a football game. XP doesn't work in sports games, yes RPG games but Madden is not a RPG game, it's a sports game that for some reason has a RPG feature in it.

Plus we did have potential before they did like they always do, remove it instead of improving upon it. So I imagine folks who don't like XP will soon be happy once EA comes up with another progression system to replace it.
That's a good point about Madden and even other sports sims not having XP before but still accomplishing progression. However, I don't agree that XP can't work in a sports game, I just think the way it's currently done in CFM, it won't.

To keep it simple, picture the XP acquisition and allocation as being "under the hood", unseen, when choosing to use the coaching staff, player time, playcalling, etc progression UI, like in old Maddens. The XP system would just be a different way of having the AI calculate progression, while giving the User the option of having more but not complete like currently, control over the allocation.
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Old 06-29-2014, 04:01 PM   #165
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe

A primary mark of a good video game - regardless of genre - is that it engages the user and makes the user feel directly responsible for any and all progress over the course of the game. The best way to do this in a game where the user has a real-time gameplay responsibility (i.e. most modern 3D console games) is to link any and all long-game progress to success achieved during short-term core gameplay. This makes the user feel rewarded for that success and encourages the user to keep playing the game. This idea has been proven to work time and time again regardless of video game genre and as I've been over before there are countless examples throughout the history of video games, including team sports games.
I did agree with some of the points in this post but I wanted to specifically talk about the bold. If we can get back on topic of franchise/CCM here, wouldn't you agree that for Madden, NCAA, MLB, etc where you have to build a team through draft, free agency, trades that the feeling of being rewarded is through franchise mode. Long game progress meaning the years it takes, no matter how many drafts it takes to rebuild a team, that reward is finally winning the Super Bowl. You finally win the World Series, you win the NBA Championship, the National Championship, that's the longevity and the award for playing franchise.

Yet it seems EA is content with CCM being 16 Play Now games that in the end, it really doesn't give you that feeling of winning the Super Bowl. Why not do everything to ensure the one mode that gives people longevity and reward actually does that. It's just strange to me that the one mode where you can get that reward and gives the game longevity is neglected.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:06 PM   #166
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
--quote spoiler'd for length--

Spoiler
My overarching point is that Tiburon is basically paying lip service to the word "simulation" and nothing more because they are making a video game. A video game which is authentic to the NFL and its player experiences are designed with the NFL in mind, but at the end of the day it's still a video game. A video game which a user expects to have an active role in gameplay, be rewarded for successes in gameplay, and be punished for and learn from failures in gameplay.

Madden NFL is not intended and was never intended to be a full-on simulation, IMO. For starters, a simulation in the truest sense of the word wouldn't ever allow for user control of the players. A simulation wouldn't allow for me to hop in and throw passes, the AI would simulate where the passes are being thrown. A simulation wouldn't let me try to evade tacklers, the success or failure of any attempted tackle would be determined without my having any say in the matter. A simulation quite obviously wouldn't let me control how my players grow and decline over long spans time. To that end, any PC text-based football game or NFL Head Coach is more of a simulation than Madden has ever been. Hell, Head Coach might not even be a simulation because the user has control of play calling; the truest of simulations would just put the two teams in and spit out a result; i.e. AccuScore game forecasts.

The vast majority people who boot up their XBOXes or PlayStations expect to play a video game when they turn on their consoles and put a software disc in. To that end, Madden must cater to and rightly does cater to a crowd which expects to play a video game. What said vast majority do not expect is to turn on a video game and then watch it play itself.

There is an important distinction between these two products, a football simulation and an authentic football video game; which one do you really want? I personally prefer to play video games and decide the outcome rather than watch them decide the outcome for me, so I'd rather have the video game over the simulation. It's absolutely fine if you want the simulation, but if that's the case don't buy Madden. It's not a simulation, it never was a simulation, it never will be a simulation.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:12 PM   #167
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by goravens2052
I did agree with some of the points in this post but I wanted to specifically talk about the bold. If we can get back on topic of franchise/CCM here, wouldn't you agree that for Madden, NCAA, MLB, etc where you have to build a team through draft, free agency, trades that the feeling of being rewarded is through franchise mode. Long game progress meaning the years it takes, no matter how many drafts it takes to rebuild a team, that reward is finally winning the Super Bowl. You finally win the World Series, you win the NBA Championship, the National Championship, that's the longevity and the award for playing franchise.

Yet it seems EA is content with CCM being 16 Play Now games that in the end, it really doesn't give you that feeling of winning the Super Bowl. Why not do everything to ensure the one mode that gives people longevity and reward actually does that. It's just strange to me that the one mode where you can get that reward and gives the game longevity is neglected.
I'm confused as to the question.

The game does in-fact actively reward the player for playing well in CFM games via XP awards to the on-roster players, team coach, and owner avatars, with which players may improve their abilities, coaches can unlock abilities to help players improve faster, and owners can do... heaven knows what, I don't ever touch Owner mode; build a better stadium I guess? This encourages the player to keep playing; his team is getting better, so he can do better against harder teams, at the same time while other teams are acting in the same world also working to build up their rosters.

If we're talking about keeping context with the individual games via commentary and overlays, that's a presentation issue, not a gameplay issue. Still relevant to CFM, yes; relevant to the XP loop conversation, no. I can't speak a whole lot to the presentation of games within CFM because Tiburon turns off all the presentation bells and whistles during online head-to-head games (which I really don't like, but that's another story for another thread), so I've never really seen much of whatever may or may not be there.
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Old 06-29-2014, 05:18 PM   #168
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Re: Was/has there been any franchise info released?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
To keep it simple, picture the XP acquisition and allocation as being "under the hood", unseen, when choosing to use the coaching staff, player time, playcalling, etc progression UI, like in old Maddens. The XP system would just be a different way of having the AI calculate progression, while giving the User the option of having more but not complete like currently, control over the allocation.
This is effectively already in the game if you go to the progression screen and hit Y / Triangle on a player; the AI decides how to spend the XP for that player on its own. With this option, the user never has to spend XP on his own and effectively can ignore it.

Progression in Madden has always been at least partially (if not entirely, looking at the Madden games pre-M10 which did not feature quantified player potential) reliant on player statistics, so with respect to XP being explicitly tied to in-game statistical milestones nothing has really changed since franchise mode was introduced in Madden 2000.
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