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Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

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Old 06-13-2014, 10:11 AM   #9
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

Quote:
Originally Posted by briax87
The issue isn't WHO is being captured doing the animations, it's WHAT animations they are capturing. You could have anyone run and do the Lynch stumble at the end of the TD run. Anyone could do head turns, stumbles, WR pushing/shoving.

It's the people who decide what animations to capture that are the problem. Outside of the extreme basic set of animations for each action (tackling/catching/running), they don't bother to create more animations for the same scenario. O-linemen still run the exact same as the small guys who were sprinters in college...
Who does matter. Like you said everyone runs the same because they had one guy run. They need an ATHLETE from every size range to motion capture.
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Old 06-13-2014, 10:21 AM   #10
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

Thing is, you can't just have Adrian Peterson come in, do a sprint and put it in the game. There are different speeds for different situations. Transition animations need to be worked on as players change speed and direction. And again there still needs to be those little details such as head movement that make it seem like players are thinking out there on the field. They have the right idea with rbs interacting with their offensive lineman but I still think those animations could be improved upon and things like a running back sticking out his hand to avoid a lineman should happen a little sooner and play out longer, slowing down the running back.

Also, like I've stated in the OP, running backs should be running north/south with shoulders always facing up field and side stepping to find open lanes.

Last edited by johnnyg713; 06-13-2014 at 10:27 AM.
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Old 06-13-2014, 10:55 AM   #11
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

My post from another thread.

That previous dev team is mainly the reason why the animations are so horrid.

I remember Ian Cummings making a thread asking if we'd prefer longer realistic animations or shorter choppy animations that gave better control, I can't remember what the majority went with, but it's obvious what they chose. We've been paying for it ever since.......

I honestly don't think they'll ever be fixed.
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:22 PM   #12
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

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Originally Posted by johnnyg713
Wrote a blog on my issues with animations. Just wanted to get some opinions.


After watching limited E3 footage, it is evident that many gameplay animations still look robotic. In my opinion, there are 2 reasons. First is player model physics. From what I have seen, Maddens player models do not seem have upper and lower body physics. To not get too specific, the upper and lower half of the body can react to different forces. Just because the upper body is being blocked, tackled, held, etc. that does not mean the lower half needs to stop momentum and vice versa. We do not see player models bend, twist, or arch accordingly. Animations such as blocking, route running, ball carrying, etc are still very stiff because of this.

The second reason is that during the play, players do not seem to have a sense of what is going on around them. Ball carriers especially. There is no sense of reaction such as leaning away or tension from ballcarriers as they are about to get tackled, no sense of pressure as the pocket is collapsing on a QB, no sense of urgency as a ball-carrier is just an arm lengths away from a defensive lineman being blocked. Defensive players don't have that instinct to look to find the ball, while running backs dont even look around to see who's around them when running. Eyes are just straight forward.

I will point out that EA has done a great job with pre/post play animations. Players look loose walking up to the line of scrimmage. They have that sense of "swag" as they set up in their stances. They seem to have personality.

However, once the ball is snapped all those human qualities go away. There are no reactions by the players, as if their actions serve no purpose. Where is the 2nd effort? Where's that player sense?

I will just give a few examples, of what I would like to see for player senses.

Quarter Backs

Spoiler


First thing is first. QB movement in the pocket needs to be addressed. No sense of lean. When moving around in the pocket, QB's usually take bigger side steps. The expression "stepping up in the pocket" is an actual step by the QB, not a slide.

Spoiler


This one is quick, but brady knows the defender is bearing down in him. In order to get throw off, he has to throw off of his back foot to try and avoid the defender. It's about knowing the situation and reacting with a quicker, off balance throw.

Spoiler


Here is a good one of QB avoiding pressure. He feels the DLs arm around his shoulder but has the strength with his legs still planted to power throw the arm tackle. Again, there are 2 parts to the body. Upper half and lower half. If EA can distinguish these two parts from each other, I see a lot more animations playing out. (want to stress this point)


Running Backs

Spoiler


Take a look at the stumble at the end. Lynch looks over at the defenders around him which actually causes him to stumble. The sense of players around him actually had an impact. If madden could just give us the head turn, I'd be happy.

Also, notice his cut left in the beginning of the run to find the hole. When you press left on the LS, you shouldn't turn left and go East/West. It should be a cut left with the body still being north/south

Defensive lineman


Spoiler


Notice the lean in the Defensive lineman. He stands the Olineman straight up. OL/DL interactions are very good from what I've seen in madden 15. The thing thats missing in my opinion is that their torsos are too stiff. There has to be leaning, twisting, turning. The defensive lineman has great positioning with his upper body, now it's time for him to start driving his legs.

Spoiler


You see here, even though the defensive lineman is being blocked, he still makes the effort to swipe at the ball and manages to knock it free. Its effort thats missing. Sense of where they are in relation to the play. Just because they are being blocked doesn't mean they shouldn't know where they are on the field.

Offensive Lineman

Spoiler


Look at 61 at the end of the play. Even though he is beat, he makes a last minute reach to try and get a hold of the DE going in for the sack. He doesn't just chase his guy and watch as he failed to do his job.

Also with all the new defensive line moves added to this years game. Give offensive lineman some abilities as well. Some sort of hold block option. If the offensive lineman uses it too much, there should be a holding penalty.

Wide Receiver/ DB

Spoiler


Honestly I don't need to say much about this. EA knows what they need to do in this department. I have faith that they will address this for next years game. My biggest piece of advice, again, there are 2 parts to the body. Upper and lower half. I want to see that sense of weight, lean, and swivel in the hips. No more stiff route running animations. WRs use a wide variety of tools to get open such as head fakes, stutter steps, and even push-offs to create separation.

The new pass rushing mechanics are an easy way to set up different mechanics for other positions on the field. Give CBs tools to cover their man and WRs tools to run effective routes like the tools given to pass rushers. The more user input the player has at a single position allows for more animations to play out. Jostle, grab, jam at the line, etc. Too much input with the holding, grabbing mechanic will result in defensive holding or PI. Which will make sense to the user if a flag is thrown.

Those were just a few examples of what I would like to see. When addressing animations I would like to see EA have these points in mind going forward.
- Player sense on the field, player personality and awareness.
- That sense of fight and second effort.
- Player models should have physics implemented in both upper and lower half of body.
Great post man! Just to piggyback on what you're saying, they really need to figure out a way to make players run with a sense of determination & purpose. Too many times I still see RB's running right up their linemans or lead blockers back without pushing off or trying to find the crease in the hole. RB's overall awareness needs to be amped up. I want to see players fighting for the extra yard & running hard. RB's also need to get lower when running through holes. I'd like to see dynamic ball carrying meaning when a RB is in traffic he will carry the ball close to his body & get low but when he's in the open field his running stride will change with a sense of burst causing his arms to swing more freely & his back to straighten up like when you're being chased. Last but not least, we need SIGNATURE RUNNING ANIMATIONS & BALL CARRYING STYLES! Long overdue!
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:24 PM   #13
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

Quote:
Originally Posted by SageInfinite
My post from another thread.

That previous dev team is mainly the reason why the animations are so horrid.

I remember Ian Cummings making a thread asking if we'd prefer longer realistic animations or shorter choppy animations that gave better control, I can't remember what the majority went with, but it's obvious what they chose. We've been paying for it ever since.......

I honestly don't think they'll ever be fixed.
I wasn't around when that question was asked to the community, I wish I could find that thread and read through it.

Sounds pretty crappy, but I think you're right. I know the dev team now is trying to turn the ship around but, I dunno man, I think we might always be stuck with Madden Ball
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:39 PM   #14
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

I think the concept Cummings brought up between shorter or longer animations is a flawed concept for the design more generally. I think the endeavor, regardless of animation length, has to be in the transition from movement, tracking, running from ball carrier and tackler into a tackling animation. As it is, there is a disjointedness and abruptness as the appropriate animation triggers. I think part of making the animations they already have in the game slightly better is by improving the ways players react transitioning into tackle attempts.

For example, I think if, as you are tracking own a ball carrierm while controlling a defender, your closer proximity should maybe trigger a lowering of body the tackler's position that eases the two players into the tackle animation better. I think overall the game lacks good bridging animations between its goofy running animation, and tackle animations. I also thing the posture of defenders is simply too high/elevated for too much of the play and through a tackle, and also the lack of footwork.

I bring up FIFA, while its not perfect they seem to have animations that aren't necessarily longer, but feel weightier, and and have more natural transitions in general. Obviously there are glitches and some goofy moments, but the feel is far better.

It's worth posting this simply to emphasize how much better movement and footwork are

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Old 06-13-2014, 01:50 PM   #15
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

What I love about Fifa is the options they give you at running. If you use that RT at the wrong time your player sells out, but just like in real life, momentum carries you forward which limits quick sudden movement. I had to learn how to use space, when to run, walk, jog etc.

I haven't played Madden 25 but from what I read about it, the mechanics should have been a lot like fifa. LT slows you down, LS is normal speed while RT is full out spring. For those that have played, is it implemented the right way?
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Old 06-13-2014, 01:58 PM   #16
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Re: Suggestions on fixing robotic animations

http://www.easports.com/madden-nfl/n...e-player-sense

Literally just found this article. I hope they continue to build off of the base they already have. It does seem coverage AI has been improved on. I'm hoping this was the year they really focused on how the game actually plays football, so next year they can worry about animations.
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