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E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

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Old 06-21-2014, 11:07 PM   #33
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Ian would have thrived under Cam & Rex, he was the only one pushing for sim at the time. Cam would have been Ian's boss though so I think he has way more say than Ian ever came close to having.

Ian was in the right place at the wrong time. If Cam and Rex had been there back then, then Madden would be light years beyond where it is today.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:24 PM   #34
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdavis82
Yeah it does matter because it shows you're open minded. I'm talking about people who haven't played more than 20 hours of a Madden title since M11 and say the game is still the same and hasn't and never will improve. The difference between then and now is night and day. The rate of improvement may not be good enough for some but since 13, it's improved at a faster pace. 25 to 15 looks to be a bigger jump than 13 to 25.
*raises hand*

I may or may not have 20 hours in on Madden since then (I'm curious what that's supposed to mean). And for what I'm looking for, it hasn't improved MUCH. I won't say it will never improve, but...

What do you want from folks? We get your enthusiasm, but what is it based on? Promises?

I think the increased rate of improvement you see is still baby steps to others. That's why every thread turns into this. I'm curious what you think has improved so greatly, because everything you seem happy about looks half baked to me.

And for my taste, the biggest jump in recent times was from '09 to '10. Now, if the vids released so far have been holding back on features, great. If not, this looks like the same core game.

Also, I don't think the likes of Ian, Cam & Rex are the issue.
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Old 06-23-2014, 04:51 PM   #35
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
*raises hand*

I may or may not have 20 hours in on Madden since then (I'm curious what that's supposed to mean). And for what I'm looking for, it hasn't improved MUCH. I won't say it will never improve, but...

What do you want from folks? We get your enthusiasm, but what is it based on? Promises?

I think the increased rate of improvement you see is still baby steps to others. That's why every thread turns into this. I'm curious what you think has improved so greatly, because everything you seem happy about looks half baked to me.

And for my taste, the biggest jump in recent times was from '09 to '10. Now, if the vids released so far have been holding back on features, great. If not, this looks like the same core game.

Also, I don't think the likes of Ian, Cam & Rex are the issue.
The fact is, people have the right to be skeptical. And they probably should be. Personally, I have a lot of confidence in this new team. Not based solely on lofty promises, but on the difference in gameplay footage from even madden 25 to 15. seriously, take a look at madden 25 on youtube, and then back to 15. its quite a large difference. Still, i think madden 15 will be a "good" game (about a 7.5 out of 10) but since madden 13, i see madden going in the right direction. I truly think well be getting great games in about 2 or 3 years. Ultimately, while the game may not be close to where it can or even should be, I find it hard to deny the obvious, substantial improvements in the past two years.

BTW, I'll have a presentation vid up in a few minutes, and post that on a new thread
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:15 PM   #36
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

also, check new presentation analysis if interested.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCm5U_PIT8k
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:33 PM   #37
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

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Originally Posted by Wolverines05
The fact is, people have the right to be skeptical. And they probably should be. Personally, I have a lot of confidence in this new team. Not based solely on lofty promises, but on the difference in gameplay footage from even madden 25 to 15. seriously, take a look at madden 25 on youtube, and then back to 15. its quite a large difference. Still, i think madden 15 will be a "good" game (about a 7.5 out of 10) but since madden 13, i see madden going in the right direction. I truly think well be getting great games in about 2 or 3 years. Ultimately, while the game may not be close to where it can or even should be, I find it hard to deny the obvious, substantial improvements in the past two years.

BTW, I'll have a presentation vid up in a few minutes, and post that on a new thread
I think what it comes down to for many (at least for me personally), is that from 2005 to 2013 this game was really horrendous. It was horrendous for many reasons - from design to implementation. What I can see happening now is that the design and direction (for the most part) has fewer head scratchers (albeit still some) and the things that are going into the game are things we all really want. Things that will enhance the realism of the game. When I read the fact sheets for Madden 25 next gen and for M15, I got excited, just like they wanted me to be! However, that excitement quickly dissipates when you get a chance to play it, and you start realizing that the things they mentioned in those sheets are not apparent in the game at the level they claim. Examples? ok...

1. One of the things advertised was player sense - smarter players, rewritten zone coverage with smarter players. 50x the calculations of the previous game. Better pursuit angles and defenders "breaking down" when making tackles.

It is tougher to pass for sure due to defenders breaking on the ball more, but I still see DBs covering empty parts of the field, there is no passing off of receivers, I see guys standing completely still on defense creating massive holes in the secondary. Pursuit angles are atrocious and probably one of the worst things in Madden 25. Everyone spams outside runs because they are ridiculous. Every defender will crash and ignore their gaps. They simply run to where the ball carrier is, not where he is going. I also get irritated when a guy is running with the ball, makes a juke move, and my defenders who are 25 yards away trying to catch up get faked out by the juke. Come on man... Play action passes on 3rd and 16 still result in all defenders simply turning on a dime and running directly into the ball carrier. Pass commit is needed to prevent this, but do I really need to do that for players with higher awareness and play recognition? What happened to player sense?

2. War in the trenches - lineman calculate and sort who the biggest threat to the QB is and pick up their blocks. Defensive lineman will use many more animations to get to the QB. Most realistic line play yet in football games.

Line play improved greatly (it had to, was beyond horrific on last gen madden). Clint Oldenburgh has done a very good job in designing the line play. However, in the game, you still see a lot of really silly looking things. First off, rushing 3 D lineman against 5 or more blockers still results in instant pressure a high percentage of the time. Guards either don't block anyone or they will back up behind the tackles, trip them up and create a clear path for DEs to get upfield. Double teams are often beat very easily, while one on one blocks are engaged for lengthy periods. Also, when hot routing backs to stay in and block, you still see them warp over to engage in a pass rusher. None of it looks organic. The assignments may be correct, which is great, but the way it executes does not look very good at all, and it makes it seem scripted. Double teams often look ridiculous, as you have lineman magnetizing to defenders and their bodies fold like paper in a "hugging" type of animation. It just looks very silly and sloppy.

The point here is that while I do think the design of the game has finally gotten on a BETTER path, not much has changed when it comes to implementation. I mean, Madden 25 still has situations where you intercept a pass in the end zone and they award a safety to the offense. Implementation in Madden has always been an issue and that aspect, from a consumer point of view, has seemed to remain constant no matter how many creative directors, designers and producers they have gone through.
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Old 06-24-2014, 03:36 AM   #38
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
*raises hand*

I may or may not have 20 hours in on Madden since then (I'm curious what that's supposed to mean). And for what I'm looking for, it hasn't improved MUCH. I won't say it will never improve, but...

What do you want from folks? We get your enthusiasm, but what is it based on? Promises?

I think the increased rate of improvement you see is still baby steps to others. That's why every thread turns into this. I'm curious what you think has improved so greatly, because everything you seem happy about looks half baked to me.

And for my taste, the biggest jump in recent times was from '09 to '10. Now, if the vids released so far have been holding back on features, great. If not, this looks like the same core game.

Also, I don't think the likes of Ian, Cam & Rex are the issue.
I understand that you feel like it's baby steps but it's taken several years for games like NHL Fifa MLB The Show etc to get to where they are today. If you compare Madden with other sports games and how long it took for them to get to where they are now, it's on the same course. I think NHL and Fifa took several years before they properly implemented their physics engine. This will be the third year for Madden and most importantly the third year for Cam Weber. Other sports titles have had the same members or little to no turnover which has made for consistent direction & improvement. Madden needs consistent leadership and direction to improve & since 13 we have seen consistent improvement and building off of the previous titles to make a better game. If you go back to 06-12 there is no consistent direction with improvement from building off of each title, it's just random features added for marketing purposes. If there ever was a core gameplay feature added then, it was removed or went untouched in the following year. Legacy issues were not addressed. Since 13 features are being added and improved upon and legacy issues are being addressed, run and pass blocking, double team pass blocking, QB inaccuracy tied to ratings, pocket forming properly, o/d line interactions, swerve running and lack of foot planting, wind direction, wind affecting kicking game, tied to ratings, 2d crowds and static sidelines, repetitive cut scenes, etc...
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Last edited by jpdavis82; 06-24-2014 at 04:25 AM.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:41 AM   #39
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverines05
...but on the difference in gameplay footage from even madden 25 to 15. seriously, take a look at madden 25 on youtube, and then back to 15. its quite a large difference. Still, i think madden 15 will be a "good" game (about a 7.5 out of 10) but since madden 13, i see madden going in the right direction. I truly think well be getting great games in about 2 or 3 years. Ultimately, while the game may not be close to where it can or even should be, I find it hard to deny the obvious, substantial improvements in the past two years...
Can you give me some examples of substantial improvements?

My hope is that there have been some things "turned off" in the vids that have been released like they did with the IE, and the game is better than what I've seen. As it stands, I'd have to grade on a Madden curve to give this game a 7.5.

Yeah, I know. How can I judge without playing? The same way I judge football on Sundays. I don't need to be out there to know how the game is played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdavis82
I understand that you feel like it's baby steps but it's taken several years for games like NHL Fifa MLB The Show etc to get to where they are today. If you compare Madden with other sports games and how long it took for them to get to where they are now, it's on the same course. I think NHL and Fifa took several years before they properly implemented their physics engine. This will be the third year for Madden and most importantly the third year for Cam Weber. Other sports titles have had the same members or little to no turnover which has made for consistent direction & improvement. Madden needs consistent leadership and direction to improve & since 13 we have seen consistent improvement and building off of the previous titles to make a better game. If you go back to 06-12 there is no consistent direction with improvement from building off of each title, it's just random features added for marketing purposes. If there ever was a core gameplay feature added then, it was removed or went untouched in the following year. Legacy issues were not addressed. Since 13 features are being added and improved upon and legacy issues are being addressed, run and pass blocking, double team pass blocking, QB inaccuracy tied to ratings, pocket forming properly, o/d line interactions, swerve running and lack of foot planting, wind direction, wind affecting kicking game, tied to ratings, 2d crowds and static sidelines, repetitive cut scenes, etc...
You are sympathetic to WHY the game is not good. I'm not. So most of what you're saying doesn't touch me. Last I saw, the game wasn't good. From the vids I'm seeing now, the game is not good.

The improvements you list are canceled by the absence of other things.

-There's more to accuracy than a simple accuracy rating. Is the accuracy tied to pressure, coverage, timing, WR / DB/LB interaction, etc? Probably not.

-The pocket forms on occasion. I like that. But it doesn't behave like a pocket. It doesn't collapse. When a QB drops out of it, the b-line the outside rusher should have to the QB is negated by sticky blocking. From what I've seen, only the user can steer. The o-line is still not doubling on 3-man rushes.

-The line interactions are not good IMO. Again, no steering by the CPU. Little to no lateral movement of engaged players. No verticle movement of engaged players. I like the sound of some of the new rush controls, but there's still only power & finesse buttons despite the number of moves that should be at our disposal. Are force defenders attempting to maintain outside leverage? Does the game even have assignments for the front 7?

-I see as much swerving as before. And until all 22 players utilize realistic footwork, the spacing & timing of the game will always be off.

-Wind? OK. Special teams needs a complete overhaul. If the kicking is better, that's about the only thing that's good about special teams. Can you double team gunners on punts? Is there any interaction as they run up the field? Any new blocking animations specific to field goals? Any new blocking animations for any special team situations? Any new return plays?

-The sidelines are quite static. I'm not OK with arbitrary movement. Players & coaches still don't react to what's going on on the field. From what I can see, the real players are not even on the sidelines.

-I dig that they are moving away from cutscenes.

Your folks have been in charge for a few years. The 3 year plan should be unfolding this year shouldn't it? I'll care about next year's game next year. Is this year's game Football or Maddenball? From what I've seen, it's still Maddenball.
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Old 06-24-2014, 08:51 AM   #40
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Re: E3 Gameplay Analysis and Breakdown Play by Play

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
Can you give me some examples of substantial improvements?

My hope is that there have been some things "turned off" in the vids that have been released like they did with the IE, and the game is better than what I've seen. As it stands, I'd have to grade on a Madden curve to give this game a 7.5.

Yeah, I know. How can I judge without playing? The same way I judge football on Sundays. I don't need to be out there to know how the game is played.

You are sympathetic to WHY the game is not good. I'm not. So most of what you're saying doesn't touch me. Last I saw, the game wasn't good. From the vids I'm seeing now, the game is not good.

The improvements you list are canceled by the absence of other things.

-There's more to accuracy than a simple accuracy rating. Is the accuracy tied to pressure, coverage, timing, WR / DB/LB interaction, etc? Probably not.

-The pocket forms on occasion. I like that. But it doesn't behave like a pocket. It doesn't collapse. When a QB drops out of it, the b-line the outside rusher should have to the QB is negated by sticky blocking. From what I've seen, only the user can steer. The o-line is still not doubling on 3-man rushes.

-The line interactions are not good IMO. Again, no steering by the CPU. Little to no lateral movement of engaged players. No verticle movement of engaged players. I like the sound of some of the new rush controls, but there's still only power & finesse buttons despite the number of moves that should be at our disposal. Are force defenders attempting to maintain outside leverage? Does the game even have assignments for the front 7?

-I see as much swerving as before. And until all 22 players utilize realistic footwork, the spacing & timing of the game will always be off.

-Wind? OK. Special teams needs a complete overhaul. If the kicking is better, that's about the only thing that's good about special teams. Can you double team gunners on punts? Is there any interaction as they run up the field? Any new blocking animations specific to field goals? Any new blocking animations for any special team situations? Any new return plays?

-The sidelines are quite static. I'm not OK with arbitrary movement. Players & coaches still don't react to what's going on on the field. From what I can see, the real players are not even on the sidelines.

-I dig that they are moving away from cutscenes.

Your folks have been in charge for a few years. The 3 year plan should be unfolding this year shouldn't it? I'll care about next year's game next year. Is this year's game Football or Maddenball? From what I've seen, it's still Maddenball.

you seem very smart with well, thought out posts and yet you check in every year disappointed that Madden hasn't delivered......at some point bro you need to come to the realization that your game won't be made by this company. Ever.

might be best to find something else to pass the time.....


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