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Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Old 06-21-2014, 12:49 PM   #41
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Originally Posted by DCEBB2001
This is complete crap.

You cannot learn a playbook from Madden. Even the freaking playcall system is incorrect for calling out plays. Do you really think teams call "Packer Cross" in the huddle?

Take the West Coast Offense, which is used by several teams, for example. When calling a play in the West Coast Offense, you have to actually communicate the following:

1. The formation with any and all possible motions.
2. The play.
3. The blocking scheme.
4. The pass routes.
5. The snap count.

What the QB actually says to relay numbers 1-5 above is:

1. Shifts
2. Formation
3. Formation Adjustments
4. Motion
5. Play Number
6. Play Term (blocking scheme)
7. Snap Count
8. Ready, Break!

This can be as complicated as this when you put it all together, and believe it or not, it actually describes everything going on with this play. If you can hear this play and actually draw it on a whiteboard, then you know the offense...like how Mike McCarthy calls it:

East Right Flop, V-Right Outside, Y-Left, Fake 396 Bag, V-Hinge, Z-Pop, On Two, On Two.

OR, even in a simplified WCO used by a college team like USC's Norm Chow's offense from back in the day where the routes are called weak to strong side:

Zoom, Houston-Right, 866, H-Post, Queen, On Blue, On Blue.

OR, Bill Walsh's way of calling plays:

Solo Left Tear, Fake 16 Slash, T-Swing, Y-Tickle.


Either way, the verbiage is what really matters, not the play design. The play design is left to the coaches to create. The play calling is what the QBs REALLY need to focus on to accurately call the play that the coaches want the offense to run. If you really think that Madden can help a QB do that, then you need to learn the game of football a bit better.
While I do agree with your overall point, it is worth pointing out that the west coast offense is regarded as the most complicated in terms of verbiage. Many teams are going away from that. Up tempo teams like the Pats and Broncos use shorter playcalls in order to get out of the huddle quickly.

Also to your actual example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7W4DgU52KTE
It is obvious by Rodgers handling of it that such a playcall is not the norm.

However I don't want to overstate my case here. I do agree that terminology is the hardest aspect of learning a playbook. Learning the actual plays is easy compared to terminology.
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Old 06-21-2014, 01:06 PM   #42
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Originally Posted by bigbob
False.

The amount of different route combinations a team can run is by far more than a casual Madden fan can handle.

A casual Madden fan runs roughly 4 plays and that's pushing it.

I assume you don't spend a lot of time around casual players. Anything more than what is in the game now, they'd put it down and never pick it up again.

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Sorry, you gave no indication you were only speaking of casual Madden players.

The issue with playbooks is that there is a lot of variation. Some coaches will pile their book with every play they could conceivably call. Others start with a bare bones approach and add to it when needed.

Beyond that, lets say a typical offensive playbook contains 250 plays. From that a coach will select 20-40 to be used that week. They do not use the entire playbook in a game. Whereas in Madden we bring the full playbook every game though most gamers unknowingly mimic real coaches by only calling a small portion.

To the phrase "playbook" we need to be on the same page as to what we are referring. Is it the binder players receive at the start of minicamp or the actual plays? Because the former contains much more than plays; it is basically their guide to football. I once read (partly ) a playbook that devoted two pages to tell a linebacker how to properly stand. It includes a lot of information and some of it is surprisingly simple. This is why it is several inches thick.

But the fact of the matter is that there are not as many plays as the common fan thinks. My favorite example is Peyton Manning. Many people think his offense is ridiculously complex and deep. Its not. With the Colts they probably only ran 15 plays on a consistent basis.
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:19 PM   #43
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

Only reason I have no faith in this story. This is half of one page of the 2004 New England Patriots Playbook, and this half a page covering only Pre-Snap Motion has more depth and complexity than the entire play calling system in Madden.
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Old 06-21-2014, 03:40 PM   #44
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Originally Posted by N51_rob
Only reason I have no faith in this story. This is half of one page of the 2004 New England Patriots Playbook, and this half a page covering only Pre-Snap Motion has more depth and complexity than the entire play calling system in Madden.
Can't all of this be replicated in Madden pre-snap?

Granted, there are limitations - Madden only allows one player in motion to a different position, and the concept of motion baked into a play is very very limited - but I don't see anything in those descriptions that can't be replicated in Madden, at least on a limited basis.

As to Madden being used as a tool to increase football knowledge - haven't there been academic studies on the matter which indicate a correlation between experience playing Madden and general football knowledge? I don't know how much playing Madden would help a professional, that said; there are too many real-world concepts missing from the game as it currently exists.
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Old 06-21-2014, 04:47 PM   #45
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Can't all of this be replicated in Madden pre-snap?

Granted, there are limitations - Madden only allows one player in motion to a different position, and the concept of motion baked into a play is very very limited - but I don't see anything in those descriptions that can't be replicated in Madden, at least on a limited basis.

As to Madden being used as a tool to increase football knowledge - haven't there been academic studies on the matter which indicate a correlation between experience playing Madden and general football knowledge? I don't know how much playing Madden would help a professional, that said; there are too many real-world concepts missing from the game as it currently exists.
It can, but what I was showing was an example of the complexity of an NFL playbook vs that of Madden. There is no way that a professional can use Madden to prepare for an actual game especially when they have access to coaches, coaching and the all important all-22.

Yes, madden has motion in the game and it represents it as best you can. So in that regard madden has motion in.

As far as increasing knowledge about the game, sure it can to a degree, people can learn what all 22 positions are on the field, as I know many people probably don't or didn't know the difference between and offensive guard and offensive tackle. Or why the offensive tackle lines up on the end of the line and the defensive tackle lines up inside. It can also expose people to things like the corner blitz or WR screen, sure than can increase knowledge. But I don't think it increases knowledge at a strategic level IMO.
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Old 06-21-2014, 05:53 PM   #46
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

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Originally Posted by N51_rob
It can, but what I was showing was an example of the complexity of an NFL playbook vs that of Madden. There is no way that a professional can use Madden to prepare for an actual game especially when they have access to coaches, coaching and the all important all-22.

Yes, madden has motion in the game and it represents it as best you can. So in that regard madden has motion in.

As far as increasing knowledge about the game, sure it can to a degree, people can learn what all 22 positions are on the field, as I know many people probably don't or didn't know the difference between and offensive guard and offensive tackle. Or why the offensive tackle lines up on the end of the line and the defensive tackle lines up inside. It can also expose people to things like the corner blitz or WR screen, sure than can increase knowledge. But I don't think it increases knowledge at a strategic level IMO.
It most certainly does increase knowledge at a strategic level, just not to the extent we would like. Lets be honest, your examples of how it can increase knowledge were a bit condescending.

Madden has realistic passing concepts in the game. Things like smash and hi lo reads. If there is a passing concept in the NFL, it is portrayed in Madden (with the exception of package plays). And lets stop hating on the game for a minute, all things considered the game gets those concepts and what they are designed to do pretty damn well.

Sometimes when I am struggling on offense do you know what I do? I don't consult this board or any Madden strategy site. I more often than not go here: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...t-Cover-3.html
That is just one article and he has several. My point is that if Madden's passing game is good enough for me to consult a actual NFL breakdown then yes, it most certainly can help with strategic knowledge.

Think of how often on this board shortly after release we see threads along the lines of "how do I beat cover 2/3/4/6/man?" That tells you all you need to know as to whether or not the game can teach strategic knowledge.
And before anyone twists my words, it probably will not help Bridgewater any.
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Old 06-21-2014, 06:26 PM   #47
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
As to Madden being used as a tool to increase football knowledge - haven't there been academic studies on the matter which indicate a correlation between experience playing Madden and general football knowledge? I don't know how much playing Madden would help a professional, that said; there are too many real-world concepts missing from the game as it currently exists.
As much as I'm not a fan of the current state of Madden I'd have to agree here because and I'm not saying this proves anything, but I know for a fact that my nephews HS football coach told them all to play Madden in order to increase their overall knowledge of football specifically when it comes to play structure and development. I remember that because I was so blown away that an actual football coach would use Madden for teaching that way, but he did. And this was a guy who came in and turned around their program; got them to championship level started sending players to D1 programs and all of that so it's not like he didn't know what he was doing.
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Old 06-21-2014, 06:34 PM   #48
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Re: Teddy Bridgewater using Madden 25 to learn playbook

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsimmonds
It most certainly does increase knowledge at a strategic level, just not to the extent we would like. Lets be honest, your examples of how it can increase knowledge were a bit condescending.

Madden has realistic passing concepts in the game. Things like smash and hi lo reads. If there is a passing concept in the NFL, it is portrayed in Madden (with the exception of package plays). And lets stop hating on the game for a minute, all things considered the game gets those concepts and what they are designed to do pretty damn well.

Sometimes when I am struggling on offense do you know what I do? I don't consult this board or any Madden strategy site. I more often than not go here: http://www.nationalfootballpost.com/...t-Cover-3.html
That is just one article and he has several. My point is that if Madden's passing game is good enough for me to consult a actual NFL breakdown then yes, it most certainly can help with strategic knowledge.

Think of how often on this board shortly after release we see threads along the lines of "how do I beat cover 2/3/4/6/man?" That tells you all you need to know as to whether or not the game can teach strategic knowledge.
And before anyone twists my words, it probably will not help Bridgewater any.
And again, to the point of the thread.

Can Bridgewater learn the Vikings playbook from Madden? That's the discussion here.

You're quoting a post that was only made to contest that, nothing more.
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