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Old 06-27-2014, 12:59 PM   #73
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Okay, I will clarify -

First, AWR has never mattered for a user-controlled player, that is known and I will readily concede.

Beyond that - personally, I immediately notice a difference when I throw passes with Tony Romo and Tim Tebow, Tebow can't hit the broad side of barn more often than not. I immediately notice a difference running as Roy Helu or Alfred Morris, Morris is more likely to advance the ball after contact. WRs with low catch ratings drop the ball more often, and CPU controlled players with low mental ratings I often find in the wrong positions and/or less likely to be paying attention to the ball at all. My cornerbacks with high MCV ratings are better able to keep up with receivers making their route cuts, and my cornerbacks with high ZCV ratings generally are more aware of their surroundings in zone coverage (that zone coverage AI in Madden has never really been great notwithstanding).

Moreover, we've been told plenty of times by developers and designers from Tiburon - both on this forums and via EA blogs - what the functions of each of the ratings are. At one point I put together a Google Doc full of all that information because I was interested in gathering it all (that information can be found on this forum if you search hard enough). Personally, I'm inclined to believe the people who made the game with respect to discussion about how the game operates. They made the game, they know how it works, they aren't so grossly incompetent as to not know how their own program functions, and they have no reason to lead their user base astray.

The blanket statement "ratings don't matter" isn't true and I've played plenty enough Madden to _know_ that's the case. Could how those ratings affect the game be changed to be better and more obvious? Certainly, just look at the changes to how throw accuracy has been determined over the years; there's always room for evolution of the system. But these numbers aren't just in the game for window dressing, that's just silly.
I am going to resist the urge to reply in a sarcastic fashion, though I can assure you, the impulse is quite strong lol.

I will simply say this. There are many unintended and unexpected results that can arise in developing software and it is almost always the user base that finds out about those results, post launch. DICE never intended for you to fall through the ground on some of their maps and be able to shoot enemies without them being able to shoot you, yet it is entirely possible to do, on Op Metro just as an example. The same with Infinity Ward and various COD games. They didn't know about it until we (the user base) did it. There are countless examples like this and they aren't all relegated to bugs either.

Now think about Tiburon's track record, some of the statements that they've made (many examples listed in response to your post that I don't need to repeat) and I'm not sure how you can doubt the possibility that they don't know something or could be mistaken about something, related to the game that they have designed.

As far as you saying they have no reason to mislead their user base, I'm going to assume you didn't really mean that.
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:29 PM   #74
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

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Originally Posted by Only1LT
I am going to resist the urge to reply in a sarcastic fashion, though I can assure you, the impulse is quite strong lol.

I will simply say this. There are many unintended and unexpected results that can arise in developing software and it is almost always the user base that finds out about those results, post launch. DICE never intended for you to fall through the ground on some of their maps and be able to shoot enemies without them being able to shoot you, yet it is entirely possible to do, on Op Metro just as an example. The same with Infinity Ward and various COD games. They didn't know about it until we (the user base) did it. There are countless examples like this and they aren't all relegated to bugs either.

Now think about Tiburon's track record, some of the statements that they've made (many examples listed in response to your post that I don't need to repeat) and I'm not sure how you can doubt the possibility that they don't know something or could be mistaken about something, related to the game that they have designed.

As far as you saying they have no reason to mislead their user base, I'm going to assume you didn't really mean that.
I think people would be surprised by how often a company knows a problem is there prior to release. Because of the way patching has taken such a hold in modern game development, companies are more inclined to do this.
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Old 06-27-2014, 03:48 PM   #75
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

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Originally Posted by NicVirtue
Speed is speed, no doubt about it. But if I give a DB 70 speed, and 99 Man Coverage, he will keep with a WR with 99 Speed if he is in man coverage, with the speed threshold on default.
I always thought of a lot of those ratings as "speed in X situation". For example, MCV is "player speed when assigned to man coverage". PUR is "player speed when chasing the ball carrier".

At least, when I look at it that prism and compare player results, it makes sense. For example, in M12, my uber LB dominated everyone else, even on his own team. His ratings were sky high.

In M13, Kendle Maeweather dominates everyone - his ratings are sky high, even before you do a lot with the XP.


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Originally Posted by NicVirtue
Kick Return means absolutely nothing for both User and CPU. On CPU returns, all they do is try to truck their way through defenders or spin in a meaningless direction, and NEVER run to the obvious gaping holes.
KR improves the blockers for the returner. It doesn't change their pathing logic, though it should because that's what good KR do - they read space and find lanes and then explode through them...which should make KR a modifier to things that already relate to those skills - SPD, ACC, AWR, AGI.


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Originally Posted by NicVirtue
Every other rating is governed by the sliders.
Kick Accuracy does matter for the user - lower makes it more "sensitive" to errors (small stick errors become larger kick errors) though I don't think we've had a challenging kicking system and there's probably a "minimum" like with many of the ratings - which is why QB/K/P can be pass blockers against DL and LB. They probably never thought anyone would do it, so they didn't program in what should happen.

All the ratings, except perhaps SPD, are governed by sliders - and even speed is somehow altered/tweaked/modified by the overall game speed and the speed threshold.

Even the penalty sliders, at least they used to in M13, impacted player behavior and results, which means it impacted ratings on some level.
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Old 06-27-2014, 04:33 PM   #76
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

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Originally Posted by FaceMask
I think people would be surprised by how often a company knows a problem is there prior to release. Because of the way patching has taken such a hold in modern game development, companies are more inclined to do this.
There are definitely known issues that devs know about prior to release. That's what Day 1 patches are for. Not denying that. I'm going beyond just bugs and glitches though. There are always things that people don't know about the software that they themselves created, that the end user illuminates them on. This is part of the point that I was making previously.

As an example, you think that Matsumoto (Street Fighter creator) knows every single combo/juggle that could possibly be done in the game? I can tell you for a fact that he does not. The framework for the game is there. The move priority. The amount of frames a particular move takes. Which moves have certain properties (launch, stagger, guard crush, etc). He has an idea of balance that he is trying implement and he has concepts in his mind for how these moves can be chained together, but there will be many more that he never thought of, that will also be possible, that the user will find out, just by using the basis that Matsumoto laid down.

Going beyond bugs and glitches, there are many things that the end user uncovers that a software designer was unaware of. Even things that have to do with using said software exactly as intended.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:45 PM   #77
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

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Originally Posted by Only1LT
There are definitely known issues that devs know about prior to release. That's what Day 1 patches are for. Not denying that. I'm going beyond just bugs and glitches though. There are always things that people don't know about the software that they themselves created, that the end user illuminates them on. This is part of the point that I was making previously.

As an example, you think that Matsumoto (Street Fighter creator) knows every single combo/juggle that could possibly be done in the game? I can tell you for a fact that he does not. The framework for the game is there. The move priority. The amount of frames a particular move takes. Which moves have certain properties (launch, stagger, guard crush, etc). He has an idea of balance that he is trying implement and he has concepts in his mind for how these moves can be chained together, but there will be many more that he never thought of, that will also be possible, that the user will find out, just by using the basis that Matsumoto laid down.

Going beyond bugs and glitches, there are many things that the end user uncovers that a software designer was unaware of. Even things that have to do with using said software exactly as intended.
Very true. Well said. I agree.
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Old 06-27-2014, 05:52 PM   #78
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Re: What Ever Happened To THIS?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Only1LT
There are definitely known issues that devs know about prior to release. That's what Day 1 patches are for. Not denying that. I'm going beyond just bugs and glitches though. There are always things that people don't know about the software that they themselves created, that the end user illuminates them on. This is part of the point that I was making previously.

As an example, you think that Matsumoto (Street Fighter creator) knows every single combo/juggle that could possibly be done in the game? I can tell you for a fact that he does not. The framework for the game is there. The move priority. The amount of frames a particular move takes. Which moves have certain properties (launch, stagger, guard crush, etc). He has an idea of balance that he is trying implement and he has concepts in his mind for how these moves can be chained together, but there will be many more that he never thought of, that will also be possible, that the user will find out, just by using the basis that Matsumoto laid down.

Going beyond bugs and glitches, there are many things that the end user uncovers that a software designer was unaware of. Even things that have to do with using said software exactly as intended.

Yep, that's why games need good beta testers that are high-end players of that game. So for a SF, you'd want players good at playing fighters in general and then guys who are either excellent with certain characters or character types or are able to get the feel and see how moves execute and what would be fair/balanced.

The more complex the game, the more this is needed, imo. Football is a complex game, even in the video game arena. So many combos of plays, coverages, skill prototypes, and then there's the "coaching" (what kind of offense/defense the user likes to run) and the execution (stick skills, timings, etc)

Also, some users have a desire to "break" any game they have, or "min/max" (find the extremes of where things are almost unstoppable or most efficient, perhaps beyond the "standard" mechanics of the game would suggest). These would also be great testers. So would "cheesers", either to eliminate the tactics or make sure there's a fair "counter" to them and they can, at minimum, show where holes in the AI or mechanics are.

I'm guessing EA probably does none of this and maybe console gaming in general does none of this (I know PC games, at least some of them, do this -I've been a beta/alpha tester before for PC games. Has anyone alpha/beta'd a console game? If so, how was the experience? What were you asked to look for?)
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