Infinity vs Ignite - Do you see/feel a difference? Is it meeting your expectation?

[Haval93]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Basically this. For whatever it's worth, I've never heard the phrase "run-time physics" in my years of game development and I have no idea what it means, either. I also can't find anything on Google related to the phrase "run-time physics" which isn't also related to Madden NFL 13. Someone please feel free to enlighten me because I'm drawing blanks, and I feel like I should know these things.

From what I understand, run time physics is the same thing as saying the execution or instruction of code happens at run time rather than it being done at compile time. So essentially instructions or output's are based on actions that are happening while the program is running; in Madden's case, it's taking into account different variables for physics and doing calculations during run time or "real time" as opposed to predetermined outcomes or simply animations playing out that don't take into account run time variables.

I will try to give an example for a really basic game. Imagine a object's speed or velocity being constant and is something that is pre-defined by the programmer at all times. This allows outcomes to be pre-determined rather than dynamic based on changing variables. Let's say you are making a game where you have simple ball bounce around on the screen and you want it bounce off the edges, the simple or cheating way is to simply reverse it's velocity when it hits the edge of the screen. This is a pre-determined case of physics and isn't dynamic as the action and result will the be same every time.

Now lets take at a move advanced game like Madden with a typical situation. Let's say your player is running down the field and a defender is coming to tackle him; our end goal is to get a realistic outcome and to do so we need to find the momentum of both players to see which one wins the tackle. Let's take into account the different variables that will come into play. First is the mass of the player, then is the velocity of the player. From here we can find the momentum of the character, this is done in real time as the velocity of the player is always changing. We take into account the same variables for the defender. Now we have two objects with two different momentum's that are being calculated at real time. Now when the players collide with each other, whichever one's momentum is greater than the other wins the battle. This is run-time physics or real time physics. As for having each tackle or animation look different each time, that deals with rag-doll physics with allows the players to interact differently each time is based on the variables of the player, this is also real time physics.


Side Note: Random question that probably won't be answered by the Madden developers. Since momentum is a vector and we are dealing with a 3D game, the momentum vector has three components in X,Y, and Z direction. I wonder if the game is just simply comparing or taking only one of three component directions into account when determining which characters momentum is greater. Or is the game taking the dot product of the two vectors or just adding the two vectors together to see the end vector or result? Sorry for getting off track lol.

[jpdavis82]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jr.

Yeah, the "over delivering" line seems way off. What exactly has this team put out that's been better than advertised?

I said that seems to be their approach, Rex said himself he didn't feel like they nailed anything in 25. I think 15 they will nail a few elements of gameplay and presentation. I feel like 15 will be the first game where people will start to understand why I'm so optimistic about this team and the future. There will still be things to change and improve but I firmly believe 15 is the turning point of this franchise.

Oh and don't worry I'll be here to talk about the game when it releases, the only reason I wasn't last year,since people keep bringing that up, was because I got married last year and my attention was on my wife and 3 children.

[jmurphy31]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

I said that seems to be their approach, Rex said himself he didn't feel like they nailed anything in 25. I think 15 they will nail a few elements of gameplay and presentation. I feel like 15 will be the first game where people will start to understand why I'm so optimistic about this team and the future. There will still be things to change and improve but I firmly believe 15 is the turning point of this franchise. Oh and don't worry I'll be here to talk about the game when it releases, the only reason I wasn't last year,since people keep bringing that up, was because I got married last year and my attention was on my wife and 3 children.

It's nice they admit they didn't nail anything in 25 but isn't that also a pretty big negative and almost a a backhanded slap in the face of the consumer. EA does this every year, bash their previous game. What's that say to the customer.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Haval93

(spoiler'd for length) Spoiler From what I understand, run time physics is the same thing as saying the execution or instruction of code happens at run time rather than it being done at compile time. So essentially instructions or output's are based on actions that are happening while the program is running; in Madden's case, it's taking into account different variables for physics and doing calculations during run time or "real time" as opposed to predetermined outcomes or simply animations playing out that don't take into account run time variables. I will try to give an example for a really basic game. Imagine a object's speed or velocity being constant and is something that is pre-defined by the programmer at all times. This allows outcomes to be pre-determined rather than dynamic based on changing variables. Let's say you are making a game where you have simple ball bounce around on the screen and you want it bounce off the edges, the simple or cheating way is to simply reverse it's velocity when it hits the edge of the screen. This is a pre-determined case of physics and isn't dynamic as the action and result will the be same every time. Now lets take at a move advanced game like Madden with a typical situation. Let's say your player is running down the field and a defender is coming to tackle him; our end goal is to get a realistic outcome and to do so we need to find the momentum of both players to see which one wins the tackle. Let's take into account the different variables that will come into play. First is the mass of the player, then is the velocity of the player. From here we can find the momentum of the character, this is done in real time as the velocity of the player is always changing. We take into account the same variables for the defender. Now we have two objects with two different momentum's that are being calculated at real time. Now when the players collide with each other, whichever one's momentum is greater than the other wins the battle. This is run-time physics or real time physics. As for having each tackle or animation look different each time, that deals with rag-doll physics with allows the players to interact differently each time is based on the variables of the player, this is also real time physics. Side Note: Random question that probably won't be answered by the Madden developers. Since momentum is a vector and we are dealing with a 3D game, the momentum vector has three components in X,Y, and Z direction. I wonder if the game is just simply comparing or taking only one of three component directions into account when determining which characters momentum is greater. Or is the game taking the dot product of the two vectors or just adding the two vectors together to see the end vector or result? Sorry for getting off track lol.

This is all good, but I'm pretty sure you just described real-time physics.

That's where I'm getting hung up, what's the difference between real-time physics and run-time physics? As far as I know they are the same thing.

[CT Pitbull]

Ignite/Infinity both feel more like run time physics based animations than run time physics. I HAVE seen the same tackles over and over and overall I have been disappointed with this engine.


The tackles are still way too stiff and and even with a big hit there never seems to be a "rag doll" effect like there should be when a guy takes a huge hit. Backbreaker's tackling was so much more realistic looking. Imagine those hits with the player models of madden and we would be having so much fun playing defense.

[NicVirtue]

Quote: Originally Posted by jpdavis82

I don't understand why Ignite is such a hard concept, it's shared technology across all easports titles, it's frostbite for sports. FIFA NHL NBA Live they are all running on the Ignite engine.

I said when it comes to football. They touted it as some grand master plan to make their sports games amazing...but Madden still looks underwhelming in year 2 of this Ignite Engine.

[Haval93]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

This is all good, but I'm pretty sure you just described real-time physics. That's where I'm getting hung up, what's the difference between real-time physics and run-time physics? As far as I know they are the same thing.

There is no difference. From what I understand its just two words that convey the same meaning. I think run-time physcis is more a programming term thats used. If there is any difference, I would assume it has to deal with a run-time environment and how it could just be a way to say its portable for other games using the ignite engine. So it could a specific run-time environment that interprets information while the program is running and links to a framework with built in functions that execute during the game and is something that can be shared and edited to specific needs with the ignite engine. That's what I think, I'm not 100% percent sure. So as it stands, I think real time physics and run time physics are the same thing. I would love to see a blog by one of their physics programmers that talks about what technologies they are using and how it works rather than just say its real time physics; it will clear up a lot of confusion as well.

[NicVirtue]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

This is all good, but I'm pretty sure you just described real-time physics. That's where I'm getting hung up, what's the difference between real-time physics and run-time physics? As far as I know they are the same thing.

Well, to my knowledge, if Madden were to be said it has "real time" physics, that'd be an obvious lie, because the physics are encapsulated inside/ontop the animations. Actual real time physics would be Backbreaker. So I would assume "run time" physics would be appropriate in describing Madden.