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Old 07-08-2014, 11:00 PM   #41
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by StefJoeHalt
Hanz I am normally 110% behind everything u say..however this time only 50% lol..

That is charming lol

here is way say he is admitting to the issue which u clearly pointed out..but insist of fixing the main issue.."pass rush in it self" u have to bandaid it (kind of like if a windshield wiper brakes and insist of fixing it u just bend it back so it doesn't touch the glass) I understand the contain rush is something nice to have now..but fix how the linemen play..there is no speed to the rush itself..also adding true rush mechanics, speed to the rush, true stunts rush lanes, and true OL player movement would eliminate the problem except when u have a guy like Vick or etc


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To avoid the run of the mill responses to these bandaid claims: lets first acknowledge that Madden is a cyclical product and is part of the toy sector - not all toys are made for all ages.

With the above in mind, we can see how the current team under Rex has been progresssing as a cycle:

#1 on topic: the pass rush has improved noticeably in respect to intensity and interactions as a whole on the new consoles compared to the old.

If we treat this product like a car then we should also believe in rites of passage and as such we should have the written test come before the road test.

If Rex and Co. went gunho and threw it "all in" in one cycle they would credibly overwhelm all of us and so we have got to atleast respect the principle of cycles if not their accomplishments within these cycles.

Teach pocket presense opposed to just throwing us all into the pocket of fire and having us scream for holy water - a superstar QB in the NFL usually develops this trait from Secondary School up.

#2 on topic: varied QB Inaccuracies are part of the solution and are touted to be implemented.

If M15 had the fiery pass rush we are asking for coupled with the QB Inaccuracies: we would again all be overwhelmed.

In my view: Rex and his crew are easing the novice users into a more simulated NFL enviornment that requires more NFL like decision making and thus outcomes.

We need those who are rough in the ways of practicing professional Football (the majority) to be trained into the disciplines of the game much like you would give your kid training wheels for their first bike ride and then in their teens introduce them to drivers Ed courses.

Education and Simulated In-Game Drills: They go a long way.

I remember how brilliant I was in Madden 05 and 06 due to the mini camp drills that I would lab religiously: they worked because of their application to the in-game enviornment.

These drills go a long way in supporting the simulation factors that you and I are yearning for.

I know within myself that I am no grade A QB and I am in no way conditioned to be effective in the pocket should I be facing 3-4 man heat in under 2 seconds on a consistent basis and add to it that my passing tool is receiver target system that is untethered and requires I target that target before I can throw to that said target and add to that that my QBs accuracy window is stymied by pressue and tight coverage.. ya.. I would crumble real quick and I would have as much fun as David Carr did in his final years as a Texan.

Does the church agree with what you are lamenting over? Absoultely! But even the biblical savior took forever to arrive to his people and when he did finally arrive: many of the people did not recognize him nor did they recognize the time for their salvation had come: for their savior was not ordained like the kings and priests of their time.

When the long awaited, long promised product of Madden finally manifests, if it ever does: many folks will not see it and many will still reminisce over their wants for past football videogame titles and past leaders and even still some will crucify that same appearance out of their own hearts sake.

Even after the biblical savior arrived and passed: there was still many more works to be done to spread the gospel.

I do not have a Madden gospel to share but I do bid Rex and the crew godspeed and would not wish to see their talents go wasted by any supposed corrupt leadership above them that does not endorse sound game designs and sound business practices.

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Old 07-09-2014, 12:57 AM   #42
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpdavis82
I can't comprehend how you would know this stuff and Clint wouldn't address it. I mean he's a former nfl lineman he knows this stuff in his sleep better than anyone here.
Wasn't going to respond to this thread because everyone else nailed it already, but I will respond to this comment.

You do realize that Clint is not a developer right? He doesn't write any code, he's not a programmer. It doesn't matter how many football gurus they get, if the engineer can't write the code to make it happen it doesn't matter. In this particular case it's probably A) they just don't know how to do it, B) The code is such a disaster that they just can't un-spaghetti it or C) both A and B.

Madden has had some bad design over the years, but currently the design is not as off track as it once was. However, implementation has always been a glaring weakness, and from what we've seen, Madden 15 will be no different.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:06 AM   #43
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Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
To avoid the run of the mill responses to these bandaid claims: lets first acknowledge that Madden is a cyclical product and is part of the toy sector - not all toys are made for all ages.

With the above in mind, we can see how the current team under Rex has been progresssing as a cycle:

#1 on topic: the pass rush has improved noticeably in respect to intensity and interactions as a whole on the new consoles compared to the old.

If we treat this product like a car then we should also believe in rites of passage and as such we should have the written test come before the road test.

If Rex and Co. went gunho and threw it "all in" in one cycle they would credibly overwhelm all of us and so we have got to atleast respect the principle of cycles if not their accomplishments within these cycles.

Teach pocket presense opposed to just throwing us all into the pocket of fire and having us scream for holy water - a superstar QB in the NFL usually develops this trait from Secondary School up.

#2 on topic: varied QB Inaccuracies are part of the solution and are touted to be implemented.

If M15 had the fiery pass rush we are asking for coupled with the QB Inaccuracies: we would again all be overwhelmed.

In my view: Rex and his crew are easing the novice users into a more simulated NFL enviornment that requires more NFL like decision making and thus outcomes.

We need those who are rough in the ways of practicing professional Football (the majority) to be trained into the disciplines of the game much like you would give your kid training wheels for their first bike ride and then in their teens introduce them to drivers Ed courses.

Education and Simulated In-Game Drills: They go a long way.

I remember how brilliant I was in Madden 05 and 06 due to the mini camp drills that I would lab religiously: they worked because of their application to the in-game enviornment.

These drills go a long way in supporting the simulation factors that you and I are yearning for.

I know within myself that I am no grade A QB and I am in no way conditioned to be effective in the pocket should I be facing 3-4 man heat in under 2 seconds on a consistent basis and add to it that my passing tool is receiver target system that is untethered and requires I target that target before I can throw to that said target and add to that that my QBs accuracy window is stymied by pressue and tight coverage.. ya.. I would crumble real quick and I would have as much fun as David Carr did in his final years as a Texan.

Does the church agree with what you are lamenting over? Absoultely! But even the biblical savior took forever to arrive to his people and when he did finally arrive: many of the people did not recognize him nor did they recognize the time for their salvation had come: for their savior was not ordained like the kings and priests of their time.

When the long awaited, long promised product of Madden finally manifests, if it ever does: many folks will not see it and many will still reminisce over their wants for past football videogame titles and past leaders and even still some will crucify that same appearance out of their own hearts sake.

Even after the biblical savior arrived and passed: there was still many more works to be done to spread the gospel.

I do not have a Madden gospel to share but I do bid Rex and the crew godspeed and would not wish to see their talents go wasted by any supposed corrupt leadership above them that does not endorse sound game designs and sound business practices.

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk

Hanz my wife says im charming too..wait no no she doesn't..anyway back on point..I see no intensity from d-line..just check back on 25 and so videos of 15..ends don't explode off the line..even worse when ends in 9 tech, they almost walk (appears to be some glitch that continues)..and the ends don't look to beat there man, they look for contact..it isn't until u made contact that u can "activate" a pass rush move.. Just check YouTube..I would link videos..but on phone at work

As for as point two..are u implying that the current madden team need to slowly move us to sim or we will be overwhelmed? Thought that is what sliders and difficult settings were for?


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Last edited by StefJoeHalt; 07-09-2014 at 01:26 AM.
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Old 07-09-2014, 01:12 AM   #44
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by BezO
Not cutting it. All the interaction is stationary... patty cake until someone wins. It seems the exception is that the user can steer blockers, but that's not enough.

Watch some Youtube clips. Look at all the engaged players flow towards outside runs. Despite being engaged, defenders can still do their job... maintain outside leverage, contain, fill gaps, etc.

I won't go list all the areas that are affected. Point is that one of the biggest problems on defense, regarding animations & AI, is that engaged players have no mobility. It kills the spacing & timing of the game. Too easy to run outside. Too easy to scramble outside. Too easy to step into the pocket (if you needed to). Everything is based on disengaging. Even the defensive moves, you have to engage 1st, when a pass rusher's goal is to NOT engage.

Because all of this is missing, they have to balance the game with band-aids. It has to be easier to disengage because you can't do your job unless you do. We have to hot route contain assignments. Because DBs can't ride gunners, punt returns are nerfed. So on & so on.

There are missing fundamentals of football that only a few here talk about. They are not being addressed. So where you see the game improving, I see the foundation of the problems being ignored.
I wish I could frame this post and hang it on the "OS Wall" I remember when Emmdot was asking what we wanted out of line play right before M13 released. Much of what people were citing was the "binary" nature of engagement in madden. This is why everyone always compares it to All Pro football. In Madden, everything is described as a win or a loss. I guess you could call it tertiary since they do have a "SUPER win". However, this is not realistic at all. Even in M25 on Next Gen, you will not see the pocket collapse. Feeling pressure in the pocket does not happen because you are either clobbered by a lineman who has disengaged, or you have all day to throw it. If you play against the computer there will be times were you will actually see a 10 second pocket if you are not controller a D Lineman. This happens when there is no concept of pushing it or, more aptly as Bezo put it, lineman still doing their job while engaged. When you get sacked in Madden, SOMETIMES you will see a decent edge rush where a DE will beat the tackle, but it looks silly. First off, the DE never gets down to a proper rush angle. He will run perfectly up right in a silly looking arc. Secondly, the tackle barely moves and once he is beat, he stays in his hunched over position with his hands up. Most of the time, you see a DT just beat his man and the G or C just gives up and he runs through untouched to clobber the QB. It's certainly miles better than what we had last gen, but it is still far below the standard we had years ago.

Same thing goes for linebacker play. This is why everyone complains about madden when it moves. You can't fix this game until you get how the players interact done right. None of it looks organic or natural because it isn't. This is also why I have zero confidence in "WR/DB" interaction being fixed. You can't fix it or add it until you have fixed how ALL players in the game interact. And don't tell me it can't be done, you can look on youtube and find thousands of hours of footage of how it can be done nearly flawlessly without a real time physics engine on inferior hardware.
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Old 07-09-2014, 02:05 AM   #45
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

I am showing up late to the party but here is my two cents.

Clint is not the problem. I've always been doubtful about the actual programmers. Sports games, and apparently Madden in particular, do not seem to attract the best guys in the field. Developing AI is no small task and I do not know how good the guys at EA are. Going by results I would say not that good.

The problem with the pass blocking comes down to nanos. We all remember a couple of years ago where playing online meant you had to face insta-pressure. Certain guys, who seemingly now serve as testers for EA, found ways to exploit the game. The only way to remedy this was for EA to make psychic linemen. Now all linemen know where the pass rush is coming from. As a result certain strategies are nearly useless. Forget realistic stunts and overload blitzes.

One more thing, go watch tape on any good linebacker (always fun to watch footage of Ray Lewis). Those guys can be blocked, and I mean fully engaged, then take one arm to keep the blocker at bay and at the right time shed the block and make the tackle. Madden needs to work on this. What happens in game is that the blocker suddenly stops blocking.
JP earlier mentioned that Clint said every rush move in real life is present in Madden. This is simply not true. Madden relies on animations whereas real life is much more dynamic. Aside from the LB example of a guy making a tackle while kinda blocked, how often do wee see sacks/hits on a QB by a defender who is "engaged" with a defender?

The number of "moves" a defender has in real life is only limited by the number of situations that are possible. Madden cannot replicate this I know, but to lie and say "we have everything" does not bode well. It is the same crap we have always been told. Today they tell us how great it is, in 4 years they will give us "we admit that it has not been that good in the past but guys, we fixed it and now it is awesome"
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Old 07-09-2014, 05:11 AM   #46
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by StefJoeHalt
Hanz my wife says im charming too..wait no no she doesn't..anyway back on point..I see no intensity from d-line..just check back on 25 and so videos of 15..ends don't explode off the line..even worse when ends in 9 tech, they almost walk (appears to be some glitch that continues)..and the ends don't look to beat there man, they look for contact..it isn't until u made contact that u can "activate" a pass rush move.. Just check YouTube..I would link videos..but on phone at work

As for as point two..are u implying that the current madden team need to slowly move us to sim or we will be overwhelmed? Thought that is what sliders and difficult settings were for?


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While their better is still not great: I am simply highlighting their progress across the systems and iterations.

If we put this in hypothetical perspective though, lets say they do have the d-linemen launch out their stance like receiver do and couple that with offensive tackles dropping to give depth and attemptig to steer the defender away from their now entrenched QB.

What would this nee pocket expose to the Defense? I immediately see potential exploits in the pass rush game via blitzes and user blitzes more specifically, especially from the B gap which will now offer a gaping hole.

Consider this, if Madden is able to tune DB backpedals are they really unable to tune offensive linemen dropbacks? Its not a matter of competence or hardware but cautioned choice - there is a method to their madness.

Reference what Rex said in this iinterview w Shop: he has a toruney guy, RG, who tests exploits. I cannot see them offering the offensive line reactions that we are looking for until they also fill those new holes created by the new enviornment of trench interactions.

A more consistent U shaped pocket will introduce defensive attacks that are OP in videogames moreso than real life - we would all essentially become the fearsome foursome and '86 Bears.

This new enviornment would introduce a whole new bell curve that is essentially the old one inverted and so it would be wise to balance the new pockets and overall simulated trench interactions with tailored DB/WR interactions that would balance the entrenched pocket fire.

Imagine for two seconds what it would be like to constantly be blitzed and pressed and have little to no wiggle room on 95% of your passes and couple that with a propensity for innaccurate inaccurate passess when under duress.

Do we (Sim) advocates really think we are stronger at this game than RG and these other toruney guys? Lets not kid ourselves. They are the same guys who will be spreading these U shaped pocket fire exploits to the masses via Youtube and will make life a livig hell for the very sim community who advocated for more pressure and a tighter pocket.

Some people will not get a grip that certain things are left open to a degree in this videogame [i]intentionally[/b] and that is to satisfy the reality that the average gamer cannot meet the standards of the average NFL player in their core competency metrics let alone wear their coachig hat w the same reverance as Coach Landry.

If Madden was a full Sim like a Flight Simulator then surely the Pros would be the best players but Madden would also edge out their core casual consumer in the processs due to the exceptionally high standard of difficulty constraints.

Re; sliders: it goes both ways and they can make the default enviornment fit for the average and have the elite tweak it tighter and the noobs tweak it looser.

A consistent U shaped pocket and average 2s pocket fire is not the salvation to our misery.

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Old 07-09-2014, 09:31 AM   #47
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
While their better is still not great: I am simply highlighting their progress across the systems and iterations.

If we put this in hypothetical perspective though, lets say they do have the d-linemen launch out their stance like receiver do and couple that with offensive tackles dropping to give depth and attemptig to steer the defender away from their now entrenched QB.

What would this nee pocket expose to the Defense? I immediately see potential exploits in the pass rush game via blitzes and user blitzes more specifically, especially from the B gap which will now offer a gaping hole.

Consider this, if Madden is able to tune DB backpedals are they really unable to tune offensive linemen dropbacks? Its not a matter of competence or hardware but cautioned choice - there is a method to their madness.

Reference what Rex said in this iinterview w Shop: he has a toruney guy, RG, who tests exploits. I cannot see them offering the offensive line reactions that we are looking for until they also fill those new holes created by the new enviornment of trench interactions.

A more consistent U shaped pocket will introduce defensive attacks that are OP in videogames moreso than real life - we would all essentially become the fearsome foursome and '86 Bears.

This new enviornment would introduce a whole new bell curve that is essentially the old one inverted and so it would be wise to balance the new pockets and overall simulated trench interactions with tailored DB/WR interactions that would balance the entrenched pocket fire.

Imagine for two seconds what it would be like to constantly be blitzed and pressed and have little to no wiggle room on 95% of your passes and couple that with a propensity for innaccurate inaccurate passess when under duress.

Do we (Sim) advocates really think we are stronger at this game than RG and these other toruney guys? Lets not kid ourselves. They are the same guys who will be spreading these U shaped pocket fire exploits to the masses via Youtube and will make life a livig hell for the very sim community who advocated for more pressure and a tighter pocket.

Some people will not get a grip that certain things are left open to a degree in this videogame [i]intentionally[/b] and that is to satisfy the reality that the average gamer cannot meet the standards of the average NFL player in their core competency metrics let alone wear their coachig hat w the same reverance as Coach Landry.

If Madden was a full Sim like a Flight Simulator then surely the Pros would be the best players but Madden would also edge out their core casual consumer in the processs due to the exceptionally high standard of difficulty constraints.

Re; sliders: it goes both ways and they can make the default enviornment fit for the average and have the elite tweak it tighter and the noobs tweak it looser.

A consistent U shaped pocket and average 2s pocket fire is not the salvation to our misery.

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I understand where ur coming from..and before I start let me say this..since the inception of Madden and in all my gaming years 30 now..I have and 99% of the time will always be a Player vS CPU member..with that said this doesn't really effect me if a true pocket is exploited..but I understand the fear..however wouldn't it be better and easier to fix if u have the basic concepts followed..then this ? Also in my eyes and how I am..if I played online..I would rather gameplan as true teams over this..also after looking at some of these "tourney" YouTube videos..defense is SO far behind..giving us true pass rushing would end in a heart beat 1 man rush and dropping 10 guys..your thought on the fix may work.. But I think it's easier to create true pass rush then fix.. "Better to do something right once then the easy way and have to fix it twice"

Edit: also if there is true back pedal, kick slides, true DB/WR interaction..it would be harder to exploit..if they are going to nerf the game out of fear of exposed pass rush/etc then why not just do away with pass rush..why not do just play 7 on 7..cause at this time from what I see of tourney guys they just drop 10 guys anyway


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Old 07-09-2014, 10:23 AM   #48
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Re: Madden 15 Feature Focus QB Contain

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
If we put this in hypothetical perspective though, lets say they do have the d-linemen launch out their stance like receiver do and couple that with offensive tackles dropping to give depth and attemptig to steer the defender away from their now entrenched QB.

What would this nee pocket expose to the Defense? I immediately see potential exploits in the pass rush game via blitzes and user blitzes more specifically, especially from the B gap which will now offer a gaping hole.
It's a game and will likely always have some exploits. But if they program blockers to think football, most of the exploits will be football based. If folks could get pressure via realistic stunts and/or blitzes, there'd be less need to cheese. And those that choose to cheese will cheese no matter what.

And when I say think football, I'm talking about blocking assignments. Instead of the Madden way where the blocking assignments are tied to the defensive call, blockers whould block areas. Head up to outside, head up to inside, fan, pinch, slide, etc. The success of these methods would be based on player awareness, technique & physical ability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Consider this, if Madden is able to tune DB backpedals are they really unable to tune offensive linemen dropbacks? Its not a matter of competence or hardware but cautioned choice - there is a method to their madness.
I disagree. It's more than linemen's footwork. It's a matter of overhauling the way players "think". The foundation of the code is not based on football principles and you're thinking based on that broken code. NFL linemen are not aware of defensive schemes and predetermining who they block like Madden.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Reference what Rex said in this iinterview w Shop: he has a toruney guy, RG, who tests exploits. I cannot see them offering the offensive line reactions that we are looking for until they also fill those new holes created by the new enviornment of trench interactions.
The fact that improvements are based on current exploits proves that they're not addressing the real issue. They're simply building on broken code.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
...it would be wise to balance the new pockets and overall simulated trench interactions with tailored DB/WR interactions that would balance the entrenched pocket fire.
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Imagine for two seconds what it would be like to constantly be blitzed and pressed and have little to no wiggle room on 95% of your passes and couple that with a propensity for innaccurate inaccurate passess when under duress.
It would be like taking advantage of single coverage just like real life. Blitzing is a gamble. Every scheme has it's weaknesses. If you rush more defenders than there are blockers, that means cover zero... no help. QBs would love that, especially if they know it's coming.

Slip screens, traps, shallow crossing routes, fly & seam patterns, slants... there are plays to beat blitzes. If there weren't, NFL teams would blitz every play.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Do we (Sim) advocates really think we are stronger at this game than RG and these other toruney guys? Lets not kid ourselves. They are the same guys who will be spreading these U shaped pocket fire exploits to the masses via Youtube and will make life a livig hell for the very sim community who advocated for more pressure and a tighter pocket.
Those guys might be better, but it would be because of the practice they put in, not exploits. We'd all be at the mercy of football. For every great blitz package, there's a blocking scheme and/or play to beat it. Practicing as much as they do, they'd discover it all.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Some people will not get a grip that certain things are left open to a degree in this videogame [i]intentionally[/b] and that is to satisfy the reality that the average gamer cannot meet the standards of the average NFL player in their core competency metrics let alone wear their coachig hat w the same reverance as Coach Landry.

If Madden was a full Sim like a Flight Simulator then surely the Pros would be the best players but Madden would also edge out their core casual consumer in the processs due to the exceptionally high standard of difficulty constraints.
Disagree. It's still a video game. We don't have to worry about getting hit, injuries, being in shape, job security, etc.

Everything is easier. Reading coverage is easier when you are not worried about a real life 300 lb man coming for you, when you can see the entire field, when throwing is as easy as pressing a button, etc. Same for running the ball. We're not troubled with the physical aspects of the real game.

Pros would be the best players if they put in the time to learn the video game. Peterson running an outside zone in real life is not the same as running it in Madden. Mastering a video game controller is much different than mastering the actual game.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
Re; sliders: it goes both ways and they can make the default enviornment fit for the average and have the elite tweak it tighter and the noobs tweak it looser.
Agreed!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz
A consistent U shaped pocket and average 2s pocket fire is not the salvation to our misery.
I don't know what 2s pocket fire is, but pockets forming realistically & contextually is part of what will make this game great.
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