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Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Old 07-16-2014, 03:20 PM   #129
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake
You need to hire a marketing team for your abs. You don't know it yet, but with the right marketing team, you've got a 6 pack or better yet an 8 pack.
I'll be offering a new Ab Changer program soon
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Old 07-16-2014, 04:02 PM   #130
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by strawberryshortcake
One way to look at it. There's plenty more that some marketing department can conjure up. Mini games sells right? Online high scores sells right? Some type of reward would sell right? Feed the gamer's ego. This year would have been the perfect timing to capitalize on Richard Sherman's position, to get WR/DB interaction properly implemented considering what happened in the Superbowl.

WR/DB interaction mini game. Just as Madden 15 will have the gaunlet, you can have a high scoring mini game with just a wide receiver going up against a defensive back. This is only one example of many that marketing can pitch. Extrapolate the whole process (it doesn't have to be mini games, but just something) and apply to other simulation elements. Everything is possible. You can market simulation gameplay elements to casual gamers. You can do the same thing with better AI, and True Step, etc.
This would be all well and good, and I actually like this idea. However, it's not a game with a high score component if you don't introduce a means for the user to control it. The user can't play the mini game without having a mini game to play. You've clearly (by implication) introduced control mechanics and a mini-game with which to prove skill in using those mechanics here - again, this is good, I like this.

The existence of user mechanics wasn't assumed in the premise I was countering, though. All that was offered was (paraphrasing) that Tiburon ought to make the game "more sim" and offer more robust AI before innovating the user experience, and that the opposite approach to this is asinine. That doesn't make sense to me. It's not how I would go about making a game. It offers effectively nothing to the user of the game with respect to directly playing the game. Just putting in WR-DB interaction / foot planting / whatever by itself without a means for the user to engage with the improvements doesn't cut the mustard for the average person and thus it's likely not going to even be considered.

Put more simply - why should an average gamer - who isn't necessarily a student of the game of football and in-fact may be playing Madden for the first time ever in Madden 15 - care about the mechanics of playing wide receiver if he's never asked to play wide receiver and run routes? Why is focus on that worth the developer's time and attention over any means by which said user can actually control the game and affect the outcome - be it the Precision Modifier running controls, the new tackling gameplay mechanics, the new pass rushing mechanics, etc. etc.? Heck, even foot planting for the ball carrier was complimented by the Precision Modifier and new ball carrier controls, so the user has reason to pay attention to his ball carrier's feet to some extent.

To be perfectly clear, I'm by no means arguing that Madden shouldn't get more realistic or shouldn't add these things. Realism is the direction I want the series to go. However, I understand that Madden is a console video game first, and any and all design decisions Tiburon makes about things to add to the game are going to be based around that fact and the assumptions which come along with it.
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Old 07-16-2014, 04:12 PM   #131
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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To put it simply, I don't disagree with them making a simulation video game that's more User interactive/micromanaged on the field, it's them doing that at the expense of providing a more traditional and proven method to play the game. "Proven" by other sports sims and even by past Maddens, with The Show being the most exemplary, option, options, options.
What console sports video game has increased in popularity solely by improving what its AI players do without offering any changes to how the user interacts with the game?

Not FIFA with its laser-focus on player control, dribbling mechanics, and online multiplayer. Not NBA 2K, with its (seemingly yearly) redesign of its dribbling mechanics, signature skills which affects how the user controls each player and manages his line up, and so on.

These games are all video games first, not simulations, and they are made as such. Speaking in the general case, no one cares about the realism of the digital world presented if the user can't foremost meaningfully interact with whatever world is presented. With respect to console games, the user's ability to play the game is always going to trump other design concerns.
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Old 07-16-2014, 04:13 PM   #132
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Exactly. Until those things are actually in the game it's just talk. This was the same team who led us to believe the E3 footage was how Madden 25 would be. Talk is cheap.
And to Clint [EDIT] Rex, since you're reading in the background, this really was a sore spot. I'm not saying this is your fault, or marketing, or whatever, but you're coming off a year where your headline prime time reveal at e3 turned out to be an entirely false representation of the game that shipped, on old gen or current gen.

Better transparency and candor to set realistic expectations are, as we've discussed, noted and appreciated. But there's still work to do, and maybe at some point acknowledging that, come the decision to lock down the game for M25, you unintentionally over promised as a company and under delivered, could continue the positive momentum on the credibility rebuild.

The point is not to draw blood or humiliate anybody. It's just to rebuild good will. Look at all the remaining goodwill, years later, Ian Cummings built up in this community as seen in this thread, even though the games he put out were a mixed bag, with M10 probably the peak. People here remember how he tried, and if anything, believe (rightly or wrongly) that lack of support higher up the chain limited the product.

Now under Cam you guys seem to have the necessary support up the chain, and are trying to do right for all your customer segments, young head to head casuals and sim head CFM players alike. And while JP wants to say everything that was bad happened on Ian's watch and all good under your new regime, last year's expectations management fiasco in the wake of e3 is unfortunately on your current team's watch.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to scrape that dog poo off the shoes with some candor or acknowledgment. Even if it's a side comment in an article like the one that started this thread, hard core customers will see it and take note.

Just a thought/suggestion, fwiw.

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Old 07-16-2014, 04:31 PM   #133
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

Just an FYI, it was Rex reading and quoting last night, not Clint.

Otherwise, good post.

For me, all they need to do is make a much better NFL football gaming experience for years to come. Honestly, I forgot about that trailer and I wouldn't have thought of it if you didn't bring it up. Yesterdays news, I guess to me.

Now, it reminds me of the 06 trailer.
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Old 07-16-2014, 04:44 PM   #134
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

I'm starting to get a feeling Madden 15 will just come and go. Its not gonna be the game changer we have been waiting for. Its coming to the point where it doesn't even matter now, there are so many great looking games coming out this fall, Madden's failures don't seem to matter as much anymore. Madden is still just a pack of bubblicious bubblegum, the flavor is gone in 5 minutes.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:36 PM   #135
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
What console sports video game has increased in popularity solely by improving what its AI players do without offering any changes to how the user interacts with the game?

Not FIFA with its laser-focus on player control, dribbling mechanics, and online multiplayer. Not NBA 2K, with its (seemingly yearly) redesign of its dribbling mechanics, signature skills which affects how the user controls each player and manages his line up, and so on.

These games are all video games first, not simulations, and they are made as such. Speaking in the general case, no one cares about the realism of the digital world presented if the user can't foremost meaningfully interact with whatever world is presented. With respect to console games, the user's ability to play the game is always going to trump other design concerns.
You framed this post and others as if a video game has to do one or the other when that's clearly not the case. My point was that other simulation video games provide multiple ways to interact with their games, options, options, options.

Directly to the bold, again those games are simulation video games, not video games or simulations first. I don't understand why you keep bothering to emphasize Madden being a "video game" when my critiques are founded in what other video games do/have done. I don't think any gaming studios that currently produce the most lauded quality sports sim video games have to remind themselves that they are making video games, like I have stated to you repeatedly, that's a given.
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Old 07-16-2014, 05:49 PM   #136
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by btvs
Madden is still just a pack of bubblicious bubblegum, the flavor is gone in 5 minutes.
Not an entirely bad analogy ... but to be fair, I think its more like that nasty pink gum that used to come with baseball cards way back in the day, the kind that broke apart like shards in your mouth before it ran out of flavor 5 minutes later...
that stuff was certainly memorable to anyone who grew up in the late-1970's to the mid-1980's, but it was not necessarily very good.

Same thing could be said for Madden since 2006...its memorable, but not always in a good way or for the right reasons.

I wish that they would get it right, but I have seen wishlists and breakdowns of Madden games for 10+ years that all list the same core grievances: OL/DL, CB/WR, throwing motions, player speed, foot planting, catching ability, awareness of AI and NPCs, immersion, presentation....its a litany of legacy issues that I hope this development team sticks around for and is able to fix completely...the odds are not in their favor though, and I predict that by this time next year we will be getting introduced to the fifth Madden Lead director in the past 10 years (following Ortiz, Cummings, Weber and Dickson).

Madden has become the Notre Dame of video games - a once great franchise whose glory days are nearly too far gone for all but the hardest of the hardcore fans to remember when they really did rule their fields....
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