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Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Old 07-17-2014, 01:37 PM   #201
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by aholbert32
Dont get me wrong. I respect your position and have no issue with you calling Tiburion to task for things that should be in the game. My point is we all know EA is lying about wanting it to be a sim (at least to the level that we want it to be a sim). We've had almost 10 years of evidence that this is a lie. 10 years of them calling it a sim and taking very few steps to reach that stated goal. So to expect them to come through on a promise that they always fail to keep is a bit unrealistic.

So I would prefer that EA stops lying to me. Market Madden as NFL video game with some realistic elements. Its not a sim and they dont want it to be a sim.
What does what people said 10 years ago have to do with today? The leadership from the suits down are supporting this team. They have to go through the suits still but clearly the sim aspects are being allowed to be implemented in the game more now than in the past. When WR/DB interactions are added, penalties are redone, which some were this year, gang tackling is fully implemented, the sidelines and crowd models are alive, and player movement are much improved in the next few years, maybe then you will understand that they are going after simulation. QB inaccuracy if it works as intended, should prove to many that they are trying to become more sim minded, there will be many people complaining about them, but I don't expect them to change it. IF they do, then we know they aren't serious about being sim.


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Old 07-17-2014, 01:49 PM   #202
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by jpdavis82
What does what people said 10 years ago have to do with today? The leadership from the suits down are supporting this team. They have to go through the suits still but clearly the sim aspects are being allowed to be implemented in the game more now than in the past. When WR/DB interactions are added, penalties are redone, which some were this year, gang tackling is fully implemented, the sidelines and crowd models are alive, and player movement are much improved in the next few years, maybe then you will understand that they are going after simulation. QB inaccuracy if it works as intended, should prove to many that they are trying to become more sim minded, there will be many people complaining about them, but I don't expect them to change it. IF they do, then we know they aren't serious about being sim.


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I dont drink the Kool-aid like you do and I'm not angling to be a game changer so I'm not going to conveniently ignore the past 10 years and the fact that people in the same positions as the devs today made promises that remain unfulfilled to this day.

Show dont tell. I believed David Ortiz team's promises that the game was going to be realistic. It wasnt. I believed Ian's promises that the game would be more realistic. It wasnt. I'm not going to be fooled a third time. I want to be wrong here. I would love to see this team actually follow through on its stated goal but I'm not going to just take their word for it like you do.

The fact that this current team still use excuses for not having simple things like pass interference (when it was called correctly in Madden 08) makes me skeptical about how far this team is willing to go towards the goal of realism.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:54 PM   #203
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by aholbert32
I dont drink the Kool-aid like you do and I'm not angling to be a game changer so I'm not going to conveniently ignore the past 10 years and the fact that people in the same positions as the devs today made promises that remain unfulfilled to this day.

Show dont tell.
The difference between JP and many of us is we would have used the word "if" instead of "when". That one word makes a huge difference. Madden has made me a "show me" person. I still leave open the possibility that they will at some point "show me". But I still use "if" instead of "when". If JP used "IF" in his post, I'd be on board with his post.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:54 PM   #204
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Complex and intuitive are two very different adjectives. Part of NBA 2K's problem as well is that they've changed their dribbling control scheme several times over the past few iterations, artificially increasing the learning curve for veterans of the series; consistency helps.
OK and my point still holds true that, What is evident is that there is no one "right" way to institute a control scheme in a simulation video game because gamers have varying preferences for how to play/interact with games, that can change, so again, the best approach to control schemes are options.



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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Tiburon is making a video game. Realism gets checked at the door as a given, regardless what anyone in marketing says. "Simulation" and "video game" are in-fact in opposition to each other; a simulation doesn't allow for user interference whatsoever, whereas a video game is intentionally designed for the user to influence the result. Madden allows user control and is heavily designed around the idea of user control, ergo it is a video game. Personally, I have no interest in buying a simulation.
So I take this as a "no", we can't can't have a reasonable discussion because not only do you refuse to stop with this "it's a video game first" rhetoric but have now even upped the ante with there's no such thing as a simulation video game.



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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
It worked for Mortal Kombat: Armageddon, so you're not entirely wrong despite your obviously flippant intentions.
The irony is, I wasn't then nor now trying to be flippant (I'm glad you spelled out because I had been using "flipped" lol), you are the one not taking this discussion seriously, for lack of a better term, by taking seemingly disingenuous stances.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:56 PM   #205
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by bucky60
This is so far off. You either don't understand simulations or you're just trying to be disingenuous. I wrote complex simulations/debuggers (along with compilers, linkers) for a living for many years out of college, before going into system admin, networking admin and business ERP software. These were simulations of hardware that physically didn't exist yet. OS and Application programmers were still able to design/code/and test on our simulations. So first, there is a lot of input into what you do with the simulation. What programs you write to run on the simulation.

Then there is also a difference between simulation and game simulation. Flight simulators have a ton of input from the user. Sports games, built on realism, sometimes called simulation because there goal is to emulate reasonable realism, have a ton of user input.

But then, I've come to expect extreme, and somewhat irrelevant views from someone that thinks "sci fi" is the same as "sports".
Congrats on your successful career, foremost.

About me, since we're introducing personal experience into the mix - I design and implement video games. The video game company I work for is a small fish in a big pond, sure, but in some form or another over the past decade-plus I've been either learning how to make a video game and what goes into making a good video game, or actually working in teams to get something made. I've got at least a half-dozen released games with my name on them - some successful, some not, most independently published, some published by major labels. I've worked on plenty of other games which never made it to the public for a variety of reasons.

Point is - and this is going to come across very toot-my-own-horn-ish, but since we're getting personal - my opinions have plenty of basis in my education and experience specifically making video games and I really don't appreciate being talked down to like I have absolutely no basis as to what I'm talking about given that, other than Rex Dickson himself, I very likely have more experience making video games than anyone else who has posted in this thread, and likely 99.9% of this message board. This isn't to say that I am the arbiter of good game design - I'm absolutely not - but I might have some semblance of a clue as to what it takes to make a game people want to play.

Madden is quite clearly a video game. It is very clearly a video game because it is deployed on video game consoles and advertised to a massive audience as an NFL football-themed video game. Madden is published by a video game publisher, developed by a video game studio which staffs, among other positions, video game designers. Madden also is very clearly is a video game because it does nothing without putting a controller in the user's hand and very clearly expects further input from the user throughout the duration of the program to reach a successful outcome in the contest contrived by the application. I don't really care about the sub classification of it, be simulation, sci-fi, kart racing, shooter. That doesn't absolve it from having a great game design to capture as wide an audience as possible, which is the goal of commercial video game development, to make fun games lots of people wish to buy and play.

Without coming off too strong, I offer that your expectations and experience working on full-blown simulations just might be a bit misplaced.
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Old 07-17-2014, 01:57 PM   #206
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by bucky60
The difference between JP and many of us is we would have used the word "if" instead of "when". That one word makes a huge difference. Madden has made me a "show me" person. I still leave open the possibility that they will at some point "show me". But I still use "if" instead of "when". If JP used "IF" in his post, I'd be on board with his post.
Great post. No reason to assume that they will do those things but if they do that would be great.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:05 PM   #207
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
OK and my point still holds true that, What is evident is that there is no one "right" way to institute a control scheme in a simulation video game because gamers have varying preferences for how to play/interact with games, that can change, so again, the best approach to control schemes are options.
Sure, options can be good to the extent that they don't interfere with the designer's artistic vision of the game. I never disputed that. I'm not really sure what we're debating here.

Quote:
So I take this as a "no", we can't can't have a reasonable discussion because not only do you refuse to stop with this "it's a video game first" rhetoric but have now even upped the ante with there's no such thing as a simulation video game.
What you call "we can't have a reasonable discussion" I call a profound disagreement in definitions. Which is okay. I really don't feel like I've offered any opinion which is particularly controversial or unreasonable.

Quote:
The irony is, I wasn't then nor now trying to be flippant (I'm glad you spelled out because I had been using "flipped" lol), you are the one not taking this discussion seriously, for lack of a better term, by taking seemingly disingenuous stances.
I mean, it's a message board so I only take anything here but so seriously, but again at no point have I not been completely candid. I'm not obligated to agree with you.
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Old 07-17-2014, 02:07 PM   #208
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Re: Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

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Originally Posted by aholbert32
Look, I dont give a **** about my argument. The game is what it is. You know its not a simulation. They know its not a simulation and no matter how much the devs talk about that being a goal....we all know its BS.

I've been playing this game for 20 plus years. Thats probably 5 or 6 dev teams. I bet I can find articles or posts where each lead developer whether its David Ortiz or Ian or this new team talks about making the game more realistic and sim like....and none of them do it.

So after a while it becomes fool me once, shame on you. When I buy Madden, I know what I'm getting and I know what I'm not getting. I'm not getting accurate penalties. I'm not getting WR/DB interaction. I'm not getting hyper realistic sim stats. I know that in order to make the game even close to a simulation, I have to adjust ratings and slider tweak and it still wont be that close to a sim.

But to complain about them using "simulation" as a marketing tool is silly. We know why they use it and we know that the game is never going to reach that standard for multiple reasons.
At least you're realistic. I know they are not trying to make simulation game, but they are the only ones who are allowed to make a football game at all since no NFL means not profitable.

I would like a game with bad snaps and blocked punts, with a realistic route based passing system, improved wr/db interactions, tiered play calling, working penalties and a full challenge system.

I'm not naive enough to believe the devs will deliver any of those things. The devs already completely ruled out several. But I'm a passionate football and video game fan and I have nothing to lose but spare time at work to keep asking for them anyways. Don't blame sim heads like me for trying though. Blame exclusivity and Madden's simulation marketing tool.
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