Review Fix: Rex Dickson and Brian Murray Talk Madden 15

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

About me, since we're introducing personal experience into the mix - I design and implement video games. my opinions have plenty of basis in my education and experience specifically making video games and I really don't appreciate being talked down to

What genres of video games do you work on? Designing database software is nothing like designing device drivers, or simulators, or many other types of software.

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Madden is quite clearly a video game. I don't really care about the sub classification of it, be simulation, sci-fi, kart racing, shooter. That doesn't absolve it from having a great game design to capture as wide an audience as possible

But the type of genre of the video game dictates the type of design. As it does with database design, or simulator design, or compiler design, or device driver design. Each genre of video game can and many times does have different requirements. The requirements between a "sci fi" game will have different requirements than a simulation sports game.

Oh, and thanks for quoting me before I took out the "and somewhat irrelevant". I had reread the post and didn't like it so I took it out. Now it's still out there for everyone to see with your quote. Just wanted to let you know that I had taken that out.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Dont get me wrong. I respect your position and have no issue with you calling Tiburion to task for things that should be in the game. My point is we all know EA is lying about wanting it to be a sim (at least to the level that we want it to be a sim). We've had almost 10 years of evidence that this is a lie. 10 years of them calling it a sim and taking very few steps to reach that stated goal. So to expect them to come through on a promise that they always fail to keep is a bit unrealistic. So I would prefer that EA stops lying to me. Market Madden as NFL video game with some realistic elements. Its not a sim and they dont want it to be a sim.

Quote: Originally Posted by mestevo

Yeah, keep bouncing from extreme to extreme, that's why he suggested it, the politics-style partisan discussions that result from people keying on a word or phrase to just rail on their agenda or some self-fulfilling opinion of how bad the game will be. Their philosophy and efforts can and should to some degree be angled towards simulation, but not excluding the majority of their gamers in the process where possible. Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

The point of quoting these two posts together is that if most white or blue OS names were to make such emphatic post as the first one, it would be generally characterized by the second, regardless of the realities of the last 10 years.

So that puts most of us in position were the only way to continue posting on OS is to "play politics", calling them to task only on what they say directly and hoping for them to deliver because we certainly can't post the butt naked truth, as we see it. That would be potentially considered nonconstructive, counterproductive, agendas and the reason the Madden forum "can't have nice things" like dev interaction.

[GiantBlue76]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

Look, I dont give a **** about my argument. The game is what it is. You know its not a simulation. They know its not a simulation and no matter how much the devs talk about that being a goal....we all know its BS. I've been playing this game for 20 plus years. Thats probably 5 or 6 dev teams. I bet I can find articles or posts where each lead developer whether its David Ortiz or Ian or this new team talks about making the game more realistic and sim like....and none of them do it. So after a while it becomes fool me once, shame on you. When I buy Madden, I know what I'm getting and I know what I'm not getting. I'm not getting accurate penalties. I'm not getting WR/DB interaction. I'm not getting hyper realistic sim stats. I know that in order to make the game even close to a simulation, I have to adjust ratings and slider tweak and it still wont be that close to a sim. But to complain about them using "simulation" as a marketing tool is silly. We know why they use it and we know that the game is never going to reach that standard for multiple reasons.

Fair point, and I respect that. I'm in the same boat as you - been playing football games since the ATari 2600. I actually tend to agree with you as far was where your expectations have gone. I think that most of us truly feel the same way you do, but rather than look at it as complaining and using the "simulation" key word as a crutch, I think it is more "venting". This place gives people who long for the option of playing a more realistic game a way of letting out their frustrations and sharing their thoughts on what they would like in a football game. Madden is the only option for current NFL gaming, so this is just how it is. I think it is more just discussion than complaining, though, and it isn't as if the term "simulation" is just being assumed here. It was, in fact, stated by the developers themselves. It seems that some folks (not particularly you), want to believe everything the developers tell them when it supports their stance, yet the developers are suddenly lying when it does not line up with what they think. That's probably more of the reason for some friction on this topic.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

The point of quoting these two posts together is that if most white or blue OS names were to make such emphatic post as the first one, it would be generally characterized by the second, regardless of the realities of the last 10 years. So that puts most of us in position were the only way to continue posting on OS is to "play politics", calling them to task only on what they say directly and hoping for them to deliver because we certainly can't post the butt naked truth, as we see it. That would be potentially considered nonconstructive, counterproductive, agendas and the reason the Madden forum "can't have nice things" like dev interaction.

Thats kind of untrue. You can post something similar to what I posted. Why? Because I can provide you with links (if needed) where EA employees have called it a sim or stated intentions that they wanted it to be sim. We have no problem with you stating an argument if you have an argument that is supported by fact. One other difference is.....I dont post this statement over and over again....in thread after thread. I'm not saying you are doing this but PLENTY of people on this forum do this.

I have a strong opinion about Madden and if asked I will offer it. What you will never see me do is go into multiple video threads or article threads and complain about the same thing. Whether its complaining about the exclusive deal or wr/db interactions or animations that 2k5 had, I see people making the same arguments in multiple threads with the sole reason to derail the thread.

Also, my statement isnt extreme. Im a regular consumer of EA products. I dont see them as the Evil Empire or as negatively as many people here do. I love Fifa (even with its flaws) and UFC (despite its flaws). So its not a blanket "EA Sucks" position. I'm just using evidence of past statements and behavior and saying that they have lied and havent lived up to the promises.

If anything I'm more disappointed by the people who continue to complain that EA markets it as a simulation when its clear from 10 years of product that they have no intention of making it a sim and that they just use that word as a marketing tool.

[jpdavis82]

Ok I'll use the word if more often. IF I didn't think this team was going to make a sim football game you'd probably never see me on these forums. I've never understood spending large amounts of time talking about a game I don't like or think is getting better. I don't like cod and I never talk to people about it. If you don't like Madden or at least believe it COULD become sim, why spend time here discussing something that you "know" won't happen?

That's not directed to any one person, it's directed to anyone on here.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

What genres of video games do you work on? Designing database software is nothing like designing device drivers, or simulators, or many other types of software.

I won't detail our portfolio because it'd be off-topic and shameless to plug my own company's products within the context of this discussion. To the extent that it's relevant to the topic - I led a team here through the internal design process of a football video game within the past six months. Don't expect to see it anytime soon, but it exists.

Quote:

But the type of genre of the video game dictates the type of design. As it does with database design, or simulator design, or compiler design, or device driver design. Each genre of video game can and many times does have different requirements. The requirements between a "sci fi" game will have different requirements than a simulation sports game.

Sure they will, based on the mechanics in play. That said, high level, the mechanics - whatever they are - must still establish the player with agency within the world created by the video game - whatever that world is - lest the player feel like he's only a spectator to the outcome on screen rather than an active participant. Video games are meant to engage the player and for the player to engage the game. That's why they are so unique as an art form compared to painting, music, movies, or what have you.

More often than not, games which play themselves - simulations - aren't interesting video games. That doesn't make them any more or less valid or compelling simulations, but we're talking about the merits of video games here. That's the entirety of my point, that Madden is a video game first before it is anything else, and just because it is a "simulation sports game" doesn't absolve it from the responsibilities its developers have for creating an engaging video game.

[aholbert32]

Quote: Originally Posted by GiantBlue76

Fair point, and I respect that. I'm in the same boat as you - been playing football games since the ATari 2600. I actually tend to agree with you as far was where your expectations have gone. I think that most of us truly feel the same way you do, but rather than look at it as complaining and using the "simulation" key word as a crutch, I think it is more "venting". This place gives people who long for the option of playing a more realistic game a way of letting out their frustrations and sharing their thoughts on what they would like in a football game. Madden is the only option for current NFL gaming, so this is just how it is. I think it is more just discussion than complaining, though, and it isn't as if the term "simulation" is just being assumed here. It was, in fact, stated by the developers themselves. It seems that some folks (not particularly you), want to believe everything the developers tell them when it supports their stance, yet the developers are suddenly lying when it does not line up with what they think. That's probably more of the reason for some friction on this topic.

"Venting" has an expiration date. If I have a rough day at work and I tell my wife about it, thats venting. If every day for 6 mos, I go home and tell my wife about why my job sucks and why there is nothing i can do about it ....my wife would tell me to stop complaining and start looking for a new job.

Venting about the same issues over and over again isnt venting...its complaining. Now I'm not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of that but there are plenty of people in this forum who are.

[K_GUN]

Quote: Originally Posted by aholbert32

"Venting" has an expiration date. If I have a rough day at work and I tell my wife about it, thats venting. If every day for 6 mos, I go home and tell my wife about why my job sucks and why there is nothing i can do about it ....my wife would tell me to stop complaining and start looking for a new job. Venting about the same issues over and over again isnt venting...its complaining. Now I'm not saying anyone in this thread is guilty of that but there are plenty of people in this forum who are.

fantastic analogy

spot on with this forum