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When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

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Old 07-30-2014, 08:10 PM   #25
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

its impossible to play with a 7 man box and 2 high because theres no 2 gap player in madden so you'll get hit with big runs. Then your forced to play with 8 in the box and it puts the offense in an advantage with one on ones . Defense is bad in the game.
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Old 07-30-2014, 09:36 PM   #26
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?

also, gap assignments are in for defensive lineman on run plays, but not linebackers right? Their "gap" seems to be programmed solely based on their pursuit logic of the runningback i.e. no gap responsibility.

im making a video on the wide 9 currently, but would love some more insight bout force, spill, and cutback.

also, i know this isnt part of thread but could you explain how blockers know who to block in man blocking schemes? How does an offensive line change assignments on the fly based on defensive alignment? and how do they know who to pick up.

this isnt just a post for lbz btw, anyone who really knows football.
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Old 07-31-2014, 01:39 AM   #27
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverines05
LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?

Keep in mind that all of this is going to be dictated pretty much by coverage and roles are going to change based on the direction of the run.

FORCE:
In this diagram you see the safety #26 to the strong side of the formation is playing the force. If the run bounces to the outside, his job is to attack where that arrow is pointing and turn the play back inside to his help. He doesn't necessarily have to make the tackle, but he's got to make sure the run doesn't get outside of him by any means necessary.

CUTBACK:
#50's job if the run is away is pretty much how it sounds. He has to make sure that if the run cuts back, he's there to make the play. He checks his gap at the snap, then when he sees it going away he pursues inside out. The key thing is that he can't be too aggressive and overrun the play. He can pursue hard, but he can't lose his leverage on the back's inside hip.

SPILL:
Once again that depends on the offensive play. For the sake of this diagram, let's say the offense is running a dive play to the defense's left. #51 will attack his A gap strong (the green arrow), forcing a double teaming offensive lineman to come off to get him. If it's done right he'll clog up the lane, thus spilling the ball outside to #56... and then to the force player if need be...

Now all of these roles will switch if the run goes the other way. And if the defense is in say a Cover 2 then the safety will have no run responsibility. Instead it will be the corner playing the force as LBz pointed out.




Here are some cut ups of the Baltimore Ravens. They're in a 3-4 but you can see the same basic concepts at work and how the roles change with different coverages. Just look at how aggressive the linebackers are. That's the one thing that's always frustrated me about Madden's defense. The linebackers don't press the LOS unless they are blitzing, or in man.



Here's a gif of what it looks like.


Kam Chancellor flying into frame from the right of the screen is the force. Wright #50, who makes the tackle -- well, he's not spilling s**t here, he's making the tackle and Wagner #54 is playing the cutback.
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Last edited by Senator Palmer; 07-31-2014 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:06 AM   #28
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by aholbert32
Most people dont care about this. I'm a football fan and Im not too concerned about this. Much bigger things to improve imo. Not saying I would have a problem if they worked on it. I just dont think it should be a priority.
Wait. You're a football fan and you don't want the run game to look like football? Because that's basically what you would be saying if you really meant what you said. I don't think you've thought it through.

Having actual correct gap assignment not only makes the movement of the players resemble actual football, it also would go a long way toward removing game play cheese like unstoppable outside runs.

A lot of people want the game to have better OL/DL interaction, but truthfully gap assignment for the entire defense is a big part of that. I mean, just look at this stuff:



How can you not want this stuff below in Madden?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Palmer
Keep in mind that all of this is going to be dictated pretty much by coverage and roles are going to change based on the direction of the run.

FORCE:
In this diagram you see the safety #26 to the strong side of the formation is playing the force. If the run bounces to the outside, his job is to attack where that arrow is pointing and turn the play back inside to his help. He doesn't necessary have to make the tackle, but he's got to make sure the run doesn't get outside of him by any means necessary.

CUTBACK:
#50's job if the run is away is to pretty much how it sounds. He has to make sure that if the run cuts back, he's there to make the play. He checks his gap at the snap, then when he sees it going away he pursues inside out. The key thing is that he can't be too aggressive and overrun the play. He can pursue hard, but he can't lose his leverage on the back's inside hip.

SPILL:
Once again that depends on the offensive play. For the sake of this diagram, let's say the offense is running a dive play to the defense's left. #51 will attack his A gap strong (the green arrow), forcing a double teaming offensive lineman to come off to get him. If it's done right he'll clog up the lane, thus spilling the ball outside to #56... and then to the force player if need be...

Now all of these roles will switch if the run goes the other way. And if the defense is in say a Cover 2 then the safety will have no run responsibility. Instead it will be the corner playing the force as LBz pointed out.




Here are some cut ups of the Baltimore Ravens. They're in a 3-4 but you can see the same basic concepts at work and how the roles change with different coverages. Just look at how aggressive the linebackers are. That's the one thing that's always frustrated me about Madden's defense. The linebackers don't press the LOS unless they are blitzing, or in man.



Here's a gif of what it looks like.


Kam Chancellor flying into frame from the right of the screen is the force. Wright #50, who makes the tackle -- well, he's not spilling s**t here, he's making the tackle and Wagner #54 is playing the cutback.
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Old 07-31-2014, 03:30 AM   #29
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PSUEagle

Quick note on 1 Gap vs 2 Gap: the latter will be the direction more teams move in over the years to combat the spread run game. You see it in college with Stanford, and even Oregon became a 2 Gap 3-4 once Chip Kelly came on board as OC and started torching their 1 Gap 4-3 in practice with all of the read schemes his offense presents. So having said that, there needs to be a distinction in the game between a 3-4 where the DE lines up outside the tackle (1 Gap 3-4 Wade Phillips style) vs a 3-4 where the DE lines up head up (Eagles, Steelers, and 49ers immediately come to mind).
Just fyi, the 49ers are a 1 Gap under front almost all the time they are in their base personnel. They will do a 2 Gap front occasionally, with BOTH the RDT and LDT lining up over the tackles, but most of the time it's 1 Gap.

http://49ers.pressdemocrat.com/3-4-or-4-3-under/
http://www.ninersnation.com/2013/5/2...ckel-4-3-under



http://s1.postimg.org/eucdbmov3/37nld.png

Notice the right RE is in between the tackle and guard. It's almost a 4-3 under with 3-4 personnel: #99 Aldon Smith is playing the roll of the Leo,#55 Amhad Brooks is playing the Sam, with #53 Navarro Bowman is in the role of the Mike and #52 Patrick Willis in the role of the Will on this play. Here Willis and Bowman are in the gaps between the T/G or C/G, rather than lined up directly over the G's as in a true 3-4.


Compare it to this, where the NT is over the C, and the RDT and LDT are directly over the T's, and the Mike and Jack are directly over the guards.



http://s13.postimg.org/ho5ukh9rb/9de...nal_png_13.png





Madden says the 49ers run a "base 3-4" in the scheme section, but since when has Madden been overly trustworthy on football issues? They're wrong on that one, as the 49ers are rarely lined up in a true 3-4 front.

Last edited by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞; 07-31-2014 at 03:34 AM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:04 AM   #30
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Good stuff Senator and ForUnto, I went to sleep. And like PSU said it would be great for them to get 1 gap vs 2 gap in the game. For instance, the Titans this year will be running a 1 gap 3-4. Vanderbilt is also running that. I'm going to see the Titans tomorrow and Vanderbilt whenever they open practice.

Wolverine there is a lot here that should answer your question. The key first is the coverage call. That's why I would recommend when people play this game they understand coverage call vs outside run might be the reason why they are getting gashed. Now I've also always been on here saying that the force player needs to actually force. For instance, the Safety in cover 3 playing the flat zone, IMO does not do a good job of playing force. Sits around too much and waits for blockers. He's not the PA Boot player so he should be charging downhill against the run if it is to his side. If it is PA well he's not the PA Boot player the CB is. But against PA, that's when he's gotta flip the hips quickly and get back.

Let me add some more. I think most of the complaints about the outside run in this game are because a lot of people want to play 2 Man Under as a base coverage against Pro, Jumbo and 2 TE sets. Well you are going to get burned if that's the case. That's why I was pretty disappointed when EA weakened zone coverage. It opened up the run game way too much. I used zone for the most part anyway though. Only went with man when I felt like the offense had to pass. The other part of getting burned is those assignments need to really be felt in the game.

Anyways, I'll end by saying this. If anyone wants to improve their Madden run defense, learn and understand zone coverage and who's supposed to be doing what. An Ebook is not going to help you. They will give you a couple of plays as "run stoppers." But these are only band-aids because once someone cracks that play you have nothing to fall back on. Build your foundation by learning zone coverage and understanding the field positioning. Also, do not be afraid to get Safeties involved.

Last edited by LBzrule; 07-31-2014 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:12 PM   #31
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ForUntoOblivionSoar∞
Just fyi, the 49ers are a 1 Gap under front almost all the time they are in their base personnel. They will do a 2 Gap front occasionally, with BOTH the RDT and LDT lining up over the tackles, but most of the time it's 1 Gap.
I completely agree with you that Madden oversimplifies the 3-4 vs 4-3 issue, and you're absolutely right about the 49ers being in an Under front in those examples.

As a general statement, though, you don't have to line up in a pure 3-4 to two gap on defense. A lot of teams will do a hybrid and have some players two gap while some penetrate up front. People have pointed to the Seahawks as a modern example, but the Eagles were doing that as recently as 2008 out of an under front: we would often have our nose tackle along with the 4 Tech DE to the TE side two gap while everyone else one gap. It enabled them to keep Stewart Bradley clean at MIKE, giving him a chance to have a great year.

The Steelers are another example of a 3-4 team that lines up in an Under front often, especially when you give them two back personnel groupings on defense. And as far as the 49ers go, I just watched the first half of their week 2 game against the Seahawks last year and it looks to me like they had their strongside DE two gap based on how he played blocks that came to him.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LBzrule
Good stuff Senator and ForUnto, I went to sleep. And like PSU said it would be great for them to get 1 gap vs 2 gap in the game. For instance, the Titans this year will be running a 1 gap 3-4. Vanderbilt is also running that. I'm going to see the Titans tomorrow and Vanderbilt whenever they open practice.
Not to turn this into an argument thread, but are you sure those two teams are going to 1 Gap?

Vandy's new HC coach was Stanford's DC over the last few years, so I would think that he'll want to continue with that given the offenses in his conference and the personal success he had with it.

Ray Horton's been a 2 Gap guy his whole career as a DC. I haven't watched a ton of Browns and Cardinals film over the last few years, but it's definitely noticeable when I watch casually.

Great point about 2 Man under, BTW. I get a chuckle when I play the CPU (or users) and they come out in 2 Man against I Twins. Of course I'm going to get the edge every single time: in real life the primary force is the safety and he's too far away to make that play. It's why you only see that coverage on obvious passing downs. Cover 1 is a different animal as a run stopper, though: you can match up gap wise because you're inserting an extra guy into the front.

Actually, this discussion and the great posts both of you guys have made leads me to another point: there's a lot more nuance that goes into defense than just being "1 Gap vs 2 Gap" or "4-3 vs 3-4." You see defenses today do a lot of hybrid stuff on run downs so that they can get the best of both worlds: have guys on the field who can hold the point while also having guys who can penetrate and disrupt the pass.
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Old 07-31-2014, 12:37 PM   #32
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Re: When will madden ever introduce gap assignments in the game?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wolverines05
LBZ, can you explain exactly who plays the force, the spill, and cutback? is that determined in the huddle? and are these concepts fundamental to each and every defense? And how does one play force, spill or cutback?
Palmer did a good job explaining some of the specifics, so I'll just answer the basics.

Force basically means the ball can not get outside of you. Depending on coverage and front, this could be anyone from a Linebacker, Corner, Safety, or even DE responsible for this. Point being, if the force player gets beat outside, the offense is going to be running down the sideline.

Spill means engage a block and force the ball to bounce. For instance, earlier I used the wrong arm example vs Gap schemes: the player doing that (usually a DE or linebacker) is "spilling" the play and forcing it to bounce. You see this technique played with teams that base out of Cover 2 (not so common anymore) or Cover 4 (extremely common at the college level). Basically it means that the player the offense is attempting to block with a fullback/pulling guard will try to dip his outside should through the pads of the guy blocking him. What this will do is create a pile and force the ball to bounce (or "spill" haha).

Cutback is what it sounds like: someone has to be responsible for for playing the backside gap if the HB runs one way and then cuts back. In a Cover 2 defense that guy is usually the MIKE, with the only exception being if the defense wants to have their nose tackle 2 gap instead (see earlier discussion).

As an aside: one reason most NFL teams pass so much (upwards of 75% for most) once they go to a three or four wide receiver personnel group is that it's really hard to run the ball from those sets against defenses that play anything but Cover 2 or 2 Man. Generally speaking, in zone schemes the ball will often cutback naturally from the original designated hole(s). So it's a problem if the defense can insert an extra guy, because it basically means the runner will cutback into an unblocked defender.

How do you solve that? All of the read plays you see in college and are beginning to see in the NFL. A lot of guys don't want to expose their QB though, so they'll stick with the I Formation and/or two TE sets where you can make sure the unblocked player is on the backside of the play, thus making him less of a factor. Generally speaking, though, it's hard to run the ball from spread sets without involving the QB in the run game, which is why the absurdly over powered suction blocking in NCAA 14/Madden 25 was so insulting: it's not anywhere as easy as those games made it look.
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