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Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

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Old 08-04-2014, 02:04 AM   #17
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

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Originally Posted by StefJoeHalt
After watching this again..in the stream he is talking about the placement of the linebacker at the 9 tech..which has nothing to do with the "wide nine tech"..what we have is misunderstanding..Rex is speaking of the most "outside" player playing the outside shoulder which is an assignment..where is ur title references "the wide nine tech" concept..or at least that is what I believed.. He should have said the outside linebacker's assignment was to hold the edge..the reference to wide nine is either misspoken or he misunderstands what wide nine means..again we are talking two different things..but again these are things he should know..so I'm assuming he misspoke..but I did hear he reference using "wide nine" to combat outside runs which as I have stated before is extremely concerning..it's very concerning since they plan to "teach" this to effectively stop outside runs..
If anyone sees a team line up in wide nine..the first audible if 1st or 2nd down should be "run" and if they have mobile QB..audible to read option..
I was really hoping this was the case until I asked Clint about it. He told me that teryl austin said it is an outside run defense. I do not agree. Good post and I made a similar one because it's concerning to me if they are striving for authenticity and realism. This would be teaching people the wrong things.
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Old 08-04-2014, 02:22 AM   #18
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

Quote:
Originally Posted by StefJoeHalt
After watching this again..in the stream he is talking about the placement of the linebacker at the 9 tech..which has nothing to do with the "wide nine tech"..what we have is misunderstanding..Rex is speaking of the most "outside" player playing the outside shoulder which is an assignment..where is ur title references "the wide nine tech" concept..or at least that is what I believed.. He should have said the outside linebacker's assignment was to hold the edge..the reference to wide nine is either misspoken or he misunderstands what wide nine means..again we are talking two different things..but again these are things he should know..so I'm assuming he misspoke..but I did hear he reference using "wide nine" to combat outside runs which as I have stated before is extremely concerning..it's very concerning since they plan to "teach" this to effectively stop outside runs..
If anyone sees a team line up in wide nine..the first audible if 1st or 2nd down should be "run" and if they have mobile QB..audible to read option..
thats the problem. i dont think he misspoke. it seemed that madden's idea of wide 9 is much different than the real wide 9. i was under the impression that what i showed in the vid was their implementation of the wide 9. so yeah while the backer was lined up 9 technique, i think that, in madden, hes playing wide 9. of course, he also contains the edge... and doesnt rush upfield immediately. this doesnt exactly bode well for future designs.. but yeah i was just trying to articulate madden's version of wide 9.
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Old 08-04-2014, 05:27 AM   #19
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I understood it as running outside is flawed in the wide 9. As in just sprinting outside the tackles. Looking at the video there's a massive lane in between the tackle and the guard. That to me shows that the wide 9 can be easily run on.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:26 AM   #20
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

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Originally Posted by raidertiger
I understood it as running outside is flawed in the wide 9. As in just sprinting outside the tackles. Looking at the video there's a massive lane in between the tackle and the guard. That to me shows that the wide 9 can be easily run on.
This.

They were showing, like another poster mentioned, how outside defenders set the edge better. If the defenders are closer to the sideliner, wider, it should be harder to get to the sideline from the backfield. But if you take it through the C gap you should have easy money.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:38 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by BreakingBad2013
Well I have a small problem, or a few with the analysis. As an Eagles fan I saw just how one sided the wide 9 is. It is a Sack driven defensive line up, that has severe repercussions.

When the unmatched "dream team" stepped on the field with DL coach Jim Washburn, eagles fans were in store for one of the most prolific defenses they've seen since the late Jim Johnson. Washburn specialized in the Wide Nine, was the creator of the 100M dollar man Albert Haynesworth, and was the reason the Titans were halfway real event on defense. Washburns wide 9 lined up pass rushers outside to isolate Offensive Tackles. He then would use two defensive tackles, to do the same on guards, or the center. The analysis itself is correct, when it comes to the pass rush. However, this breakdown completely whiffed on all other factors of the wide 9.

The wide nine may absolutely be the worst defense you could possibly use against the run. I've watched it over and over as an eagles fan a while back. Teams caught onto this weakness and that's why the dream team became a nightmare. This wide 9 is completely neutered by running draw plays and attacking the middle of the defense. You must have spectacular and sure tackling LBs to make this defense even serviceable. Teams sudden learned, that this was our weakness. They would do a draw, let the DEs run passed the play, and focus downfield on the 2nd level, the linebackers. Once a guard, FB, or even offensive tackle gained that second level iT was all but over. The wide 9 isolates your linebackers, and makes them an easy target. The running lanes allocated by the wide nine, have been described as driving a school bus through them, there is no way around this.

The wide 9 also puts the DTs in harms way, by playing a numbers game,outnumbered by one. 3vs2, that math is never going to go the other way.

The wide 9 was picked apart and there are so many ways to defile it. For example, in shotgun you need a RB and TE. These will both offer chip blocks to slow the pass rush,neutralizing the fear of getting sacked, the DE is no longer gaining the outside shoulder, he's just staring into a double team, with absolutely no other options.

Screen plays absolutely devastated us in philly, those speed rushers would get 5 yards away from the designed run, before they even noticed what was happening. The real wide 9 is all about pass rush, so if the video game is going to implement a true wide 9, these flaws and weaknesses should be portrayed as said above. The DEs pin their ears back, and only focus on the QB. Everything else is a blur to them and they are completely oblivious to their surroundings.

That is my first problem with Maddens wide 9, and that analyst's interpretation of how practical it is.


My second problem is that the comparison of the wide 9 to the Nickel 3-3-5 is nothing short of baffling. A nickel 3-3-5 with rushing LBs is closer to a 5-2 or 5-1-5 than the wide 9. The wide 9 is a 4-3 based system, exclusively. The edge contain in the video, is realistic in a situation where there LB or DEs job is setting the edge, In the wide 9 the DEs job is to gain a clear path to the QB, not set the edge. Hence Washburn's firing. These two schemes have no similarities. The 3-3-5 will give you the 3-4 system that looks to draw double teams on your down linemen(hence the larger or anchorous players in the 3-4 DL) and allows your LBs to have 1on Zero matchup (or 1 on running back) to split into the backfield. The wide 9 however, does the exact opposite. The only matchup it gains, is the one on the edges, the players furthest outside of the middle, are taken advantage of, and puts the rest of the D at a disadvantage.

The wide 9 puts all pressure on your linebackers and safeties to overcompensate, the uselessness of the defensive ends. It makes the LBs play In space against Tight Ends and RBs near the line of scrimmage, advantage offense. You can almost literally play an 11 v 9 game with the ousting of the DE. Which is why the eagles had one of the worst defenses in the NFL in 2012, and why the dream team went crashing.

This scheme is a complete flash in the pan, and that pan should be thrown away. It's a scheme that will hurt itself more than the opposition, a scheme that will be portrayed inaccurately in madden, and a scheme that is easily taken advantage of. Although the analyst says it's their job to be purely pass rushers, he negates his own comparison by saying the LBs and DTs must make up for gap control, but why would the OLB (who is the wide 9 tech in video) contain the outside edge on a run play, if his goal is to reach the QB?

As I said. This video was inaccurate in comparison (3-3-5), true philosophy of the wide 9 (gaining containment), and failed to portray honesty about the wide 9(weaknesses). The wide 9 is nothing short of a 1 on 1 practice drill for DEs that have one responsibility, and gives their teammates an extra 3 burdens.

The Eagles had 50 sacks the first year of the wide 9, it was almost cut in half the year after. They are also ran on, for over 2000 yards that season, which was over 125 yards rushing against per game. My critique is more of the scheme itself obviously, my the reviewer also missed a few key things to discuss, and whiffed on the comparison of the two formations.
Outstanding analysis! When Jim came over from the Titans his scheme was more effective because he had a contract year motivated Haynesworth commanding a double and triple team at times and also LBers that could fill the huge running lanes to go with a secondary that could come up and support the run. The eagles had Casey Mattews, trying to fill the lanes and a secondary that was afraid to hit anything. It was almost silly watching my eagles give up 20+ yard runs on a consistent basis.
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Old 08-04-2014, 10:41 AM   #22
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One other thing I noticed about these vids is that when they employ this wide nine coverage and this mush rush to contain the QB it seems a little overpowering. It looks like the DEs are setting the edge unrealistically, they don't always get to set the edge as hard as they do in the vids so I'm hoping it will be dictated more by ratings.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:01 AM   #23
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

I would love for Rex to come in here and clarify that they are NOT advocating using the wide 9 as a run defense. I have to believe they aren't because not all team playbooks employ it, and it is obviously NOT a run defense in any way, shape or form.
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Old 08-04-2014, 11:22 AM   #24
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Re: Madden NFL 15 Training: Changes in the Wide-Nine Technique (Video)

Maybe I'm way off base here - and please don't hesitate to tell me if I am - but the way I understood the theory of the Lions' defense the past few years under former head coach Jim Schwartz was to come out the Wide 9 front to encourage the offense to funnel play back inside towards Stephen Tulloch, who's a larger-than-average Mike more than capable of taking on / shedding blocks and making one-on-one tackles. Not to mention Ndamukong Suh and Nick Fairley, who make for a particularly talented pair of interior defensive linemen.

Maybe that's not so much a dedicated "run defense" as much as "dictating to the offense what to do" and attempting to deal with the consequences of that decision with superior personnel making up for the obvious tactical disadvantage between the tackles. To that end the idea of using the Wide 9 as a base defense doesn't strike me as completely insane? I'm not sure it's something I'd ever do personally, though.
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