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Big FN Deal · 08-12-2014, 01:25 PM

I was watching some Youtube footage of Online Ranked for PS4/Xbox1 and though there were admittedly noticeable improvements from last gen, there was of course things lacking. The main things that caught my attention and I want to focus this thread on are the systems or elements within the game that inherently regulate game play. I'm attempting to create a central thread where these type of elements can be discussed, diminishing the need to have separate threads whenever this concepts come up from time to time. I'll point out a couple in this first post to give an example of what I'm referring to and hopefully it will offer some outline for the intention of the thread.

Ok, like I stated, watching those games on Youtube I noticed two themes, the same play being called repeatedly and a complete lack of concern for player preservation, each one highlighting a need for some inherent systems or elements to regulate, not negate/remove, them. I stress the point about regulating versus trying to directly stop or remove them because people should be reasonably able to attempt to do whatever and play the game however they choose. Anyway to address the first point, "repeatedly calling the same plays", I offer this:

Adaptive AI- I have seen it stated before that this is some undefined term that people use as an excuse to have the AI play psychic or script game play but no, just no. It's a tangible system or element that can and should be used in-game to represent basic deductive reasoning and adjustment.

For example, if an AI/CPU controlled CB is in man coverage and the offense runs the same play, out of a certain formation, 8 out 10 times that formation is seen, that CB should automatically make some applicable adjustments, at some point. By "applicable" I mean, if that repeated play has been a run to their side, they shouldn't be just abandoning their coverage assignment to sellout against the run but they should be "peeping in the backfield" and trying to put themselves in a better position to get off a potential block of their coverage assignment. The counter or risk to this reward is that it makes the CB susceptible to play action and trick plays. Likewise, if that repeated play had they CB's coverage assignment running a comeback route, they shouldn't just play underneath coverage right when the ball is snapped exposing themselves to being easily beat over the top but they should adjust by either trying to break up the timing of that route or playing their assigned coverage while closing hard on the receiver as soon as they start to breakdown. The counter or risk to this reward is that it makes the CB susceptible to a double move and pump fakes.

IMO, that's Adaptive AI and the beauty of it, in those examples, is there is inherent risk/reward that an offense can realistically take advantage of. (This post ran way longer than I intended so I'll post about "player preservation" in another post later.)

Anyway, feel free to comment on my post and/or post your ideas, concepts or comments on regulating game play in general.

BreakingBad2013 · 08-12-2014, 02:02 PM

The Injury rating should be something that is alive per game.

Injuries should occur one of two ways, randomly, and deterioration.

Example:
If I have DeSean Jackson going over the middle, and Patrick Willis hitsticks him, a random injury may occur.

If I have Michael Vick and love running around with him, taking hits, getting sacked, he should wear down throughout the game. We see this often.

The rate at which a player deteriorates should be based on his toughness, how fatigued he is, and his current injury rating. This would improve OL importance, create a need of staying in the pocket, and of course, preserving players throughout the season/game. It will also give users a reason to not run AP for maybe 3 plays or a drive.

If Vick's injury rating is at a 75, and he gets sacked 3 times, and takes a big hit, and he gets taken out for a "bruised elbow" and comes back next quarter, his injury rating should drop to maybe 40, since he's already injured, and hurting. Then if he takes maybe another big hit, or a blindside sack, maybe now he has a broken rib, out for 4 weeks, and his injury rating falls to a 0 (since he cannot play). Then when he returns in the 4 weeks, his injury rating should no longer max out at 75, maybe 65 for example, meaning now he can take that many less hits before he is injured again.

While he's injured, his attributes should also take a drop. If he has a bruised rib, maybe he will be less mobile, or lose throw power.

This would help the game I think, from players like Darren Sproles or Reggie Bush taking 40 touches a game, or Calvin being thrown to 25 times a game. This would create another need for subbing in 2nd team players as well.

And this can happen to any player, if there's a guy in your CFM, who takes a lot of sacks, their QB should wear down during the season, maybe its Peyton Manning, at 35 and over he may be more fragile. So if he's taking these hits over and over, maybe Peyton's injury rating through the season goes from 88 down to a 67 because he's being demolished throughout the season.

On the flip side, say you have Matt Forte and Kadeem Carey, and you rotate them in and out, it will lower chance of injury, keep your backs fresh, and maybe their injury rating would improve, because each of them are taking few hits per game, and feeling good.

Each injury that is sustained, will take off an extra chunk of your injury rating. So maybe a bruised sternum is only a 2 point injury deduction, where a torn ACL will take 15-20 off of your injury rating. Then you will have to ease a player back into action, getting him fresh again, keeping him away from contact, before he comes back as your go-to guy, or maybe you sit him for pre-season, to get him healthy.

thinkjoey · 08-12-2014, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BreakingBad2013


	The Injury rating should be something that is alive per game. Injuries should occur one of two ways, randomly, and deterioration. Example: If I have DeSean Jackson going over the middle, and Patrick Willis hitsticks him, a random injury may occur. If I have Michael Vick and love running around with him, taking hits, getting sacked, he should wear down throughout the game. We see this often. The rate at which a player deteriorates should be based on his toughness, how fatigued he is, and his current injury rating. This would improve OL importance, create a need of staying in the pocket, and of course, preserving players throughout the season/game. It will also give users a reason to not run AP for maybe 3 plays or a drive. If Vick's injury rating is at a 75, and he gets sacked 3 times, and takes a big hit, and he gets taken out for a "bruised elbow" and comes back next quarter, his injury rating should drop to maybe 40, since he's already injured, and hurting. Then if he takes maybe another big hit, or a blindside sack, maybe now he has a broken rib, out for 4 weeks, and his injury rating falls to a 0 (since he cannot play). Then when he returns in the 4 weeks, his injury rating should no longer max out at 75, maybe 65 for example, meaning now he can take that many less hits before he is injured again. While he's injured, his attributes should also take a drop. If he has a bruised rib, maybe he will be less mobile, or lose throw power. This would help the game I think, from players like Darren Sproles or Reggie Bush taking 40 touches a game, or Calvin being thrown to 25 times a game. This would create another need for subbing in 2nd team players as well. And this can happen to any player, if there's a guy in your CFM, who takes a lot of sacks, their QB should wear down during the season, maybe its Peyton Manning, at 35 and over he may be more fragile. So if he's taking these hits over and over, maybe Peyton's injury rating through the season goes from 88 down to a 67 because he's being demolished throughout the season. On the flip side, say you have Matt Forte and Kadeem Carey, and you rotate them in and out, it will lower chance of injury, keep your backs fresh, and maybe their injury rating would improve, because each of them are taking few hits per game, and feeling good. Each injury that is sustained, will take off an extra chunk of your injury rating. So maybe a bruised sternum is only a 2 point injury deduction, where a torn ACL will take 15-20 off of your injury rating. Then you will have to ease a player back into action, getting him fresh again, keeping him away from contact, before he comes back as your go-to guy, or maybe you sit him for pre-season, to get him healthy.

This reminds me of EA UFC where your career guy gets those point things (cannot think of the name) as he takes more significant strikes...it wears down the player so that as the points go up...he is now easier to get knocked out/hurt

i could see this as a similar thing to implement into Madden.
I would personally love to have your player in career mode (if you control one player) get injured. Will force you to adjust your playing style or just upgrade your injury rating
-sorry if i branched out the topic

Big FN Deal · 08-12-2014, 04:34 PM

@BreakingBad2013, exactly, I was pretty much thinking along the same lines of fatigue, injury and ratings modifying with regard to "player preservation" but my OP ran long, lol.

What I would add to what you already stated is having animations present in such a system, that compliment what's happening under the hood. Meaning having fatigue, injury and ratings modification have a tangible and observable impact on players on the field, when applicable. Players slow to get up, limping, favoring, trying to walk it off, etc, animations that represent the results of bodies violently and repeatedly colliding over the course of a game, season or career. Like you mentioned, someone wants to have their receiver expose their ribs reaching for a high pass over the middle or hit stick every time with a defender fine but make those decisions have risk, not just the reward. To your point, every result doesn't need to be a player is knocked out the game, having their execution and effectiveness diminished is enough and potentially better, as a regulator.

The last thing I'll mention is fatigue should be way more impactful in-game. For example, I watched a User control a player on Kickoff coverage, run all over the field, weaving through would be blockers and still make the tackle from behind. Fatigue should be tuned so each players essentially has so much "gas"/wind to operate at top capacity, period, not just when using sprint, so they'll be incentivized to try to find the shortest route to their destination.

HoundsOfHowl · 08-12-2014, 04:52 PM

I think EA's Madden team should incorporate the injury system from EA UFC, like stated above

The "Longevity" should be included in. Could even have a toggle switch for this for CFM's.

Just like above, if you are playing with this on and you are having your backs play every play each game and they are taking hits it should lower your career longevity, forcing an early retirement.

It should be based on % of plays played, hits, big hits (would have more impact), and injuries (so if you take a broken leg it will lower some stats or increase that longevity meter.)

You could incorporate it as a stat. 0 being perfect, 100 being retirement. And you could possibly slow longevity by sending players that get near the top to the physical therapist.

Just a little thought.

kcchiefs1984 · 08-12-2014, 04:58 PM

Nice posts guys. There are so many great thoughts on this forum everyday. Prior to these ideas being implemented, we would need formation subs so we don't have the nickel corner lined up as a gunner or any other example of what would be considered bad coaching and poor roster management. That will probably need to wait a few more years though due to relocated team jersey improvements. Start with the most important details and go from there.

BreakingBad2013 · 08-12-2014, 05:08 PM

@BIG FN DEAL : Don't try to agree with me you Redskins Fan!!!

Just kidding, I think that would be cool.

Also in terms of presentation maybe a graphic of previous injuries and injury lengths.

Also a good thing would be after a long game of someone taking a lot of hits, or getting in the middle of the defense all day, they maybe show the player walking to the line slowly, and talking about him taking a beating today etc.

Lastly, to top it off, this would also justify a need for a top flight medical staff. Maybe the higher rated staffs will allow an injury rating boost after half-time, or a toughness rating to all players under 30 or something like that.

And of course, be able to return from injury quicker or slower, weather it be a quarter instead of a half; or 5 weeks instead of 8!

They should hire me.

BreakingBad2013 · 08-12-2014, 05:13 PM

How could we/they make it just as impact for defensive players? I mean you can't hurt players for making MORE tackles, or being too involved on D right?

I think maybe the tackling and play recognition attributes and realistic physics would be able to wear down defensive players. Maybe if you keep trying to tackle Adrian Peterson with your small CB, every hit would deal so much punishment.

I think the Tackling and play recognition attributes/aware could be in effect here because if you have players on your team with a poor tackling rating, maybe they lead with their head, or arm tackle, thus increasing possibility of injury. Play recognition/aware, maybe the lower it is, the higher chance of you being de-cleated or crack blocked without knowing.

08-12-2014, 01:25 PM	#1
Big FN Deal Banned OVR: 33 Join Date: Aug 2011	Regulating The Game In The Game I was watching some Youtube footage of Online Ranked for PS4/Xbox1 and though there were admittedly noticeable improvements from last gen, there was of course things lacking. The main things that caught my attention and I want to focus this thread on are the systems or elements within the game that inherently regulate game play. I'm attempting to create a central thread where these type of elements can be discussed, diminishing the need to have separate threads whenever this concepts come up from time to time. I'll point out a couple in this first post to give an example of what I'm referring to and hopefully it will offer some outline for the intention of the thread. Ok, like I stated, watching those games on Youtube I noticed two themes, the same play being called repeatedly and a complete lack of concern for player preservation, each one highlighting a need for some inherent systems or elements to regulate, not negate/remove, them. I stress the point about regulating versus trying to directly stop or remove them because people should be reasonably able to attempt to do whatever and play the game however they choose. Anyway to address the first point, "repeatedly calling the same plays", I offer this: Adaptive AI- I have seen it stated before that this is some undefined term that people use as an excuse to have the AI play psychic or script game play but no, just no. It's a tangible system or element that can and should be used in-game to represent basic deductive reasoning and adjustment. For example, if an AI/CPU controlled CB is in man coverage and the offense runs the same play, out of a certain formation, 8 out 10 times that formation is seen, that CB should automatically make some applicable adjustments, at some point. By "applicable" I mean, if that repeated play has been a run to their side, they shouldn't be just abandoning their coverage assignment to sellout against the run but they should be "peeping in the backfield" and trying to put themselves in a better position to get off a potential block of their coverage assignment. The counter or risk to this reward is that it makes the CB susceptible to play action and trick plays. Likewise, if that repeated play had they CB's coverage assignment running a comeback route, they shouldn't just play underneath coverage right when the ball is snapped exposing themselves to being easily beat over the top but they should adjust by either trying to break up the timing of that route or playing their assigned coverage while closing hard on the receiver as soon as they start to breakdown. The counter or risk to this reward is that it makes the CB susceptible to a double move and pump fakes. IMO, that's Adaptive AI and the beauty of it, in those examples, is there is inherent risk/reward that an offense can realistically take advantage of. (This post ran way longer than I intended so I'll post about "player preservation" in another post later.) Anyway, feel free to comment on my post and/or post your ideas, concepts or comments on regulating game play in general. Sausage, HC0023, bucky60 and 1 others like this. Last edited by Big FN Deal; 08-12-2014 at 01:32 PM.

08-12-2014, 02:02 PM	#2
BreakingBad2013 Pro OVR: 0 Join Date: Aug 2013 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game The Injury rating should be something that is alive per game. Injuries should occur one of two ways, randomly, and deterioration. Example: If I have DeSean Jackson going over the middle, and Patrick Willis hitsticks him, a random injury may occur. If I have Michael Vick and love running around with him, taking hits, getting sacked, he should wear down throughout the game. We see this often. The rate at which a player deteriorates should be based on his toughness, how fatigued he is, and his current injury rating. This would improve OL importance, create a need of staying in the pocket, and of course, preserving players throughout the season/game. It will also give users a reason to not run AP for maybe 3 plays or a drive. If Vick's injury rating is at a 75, and he gets sacked 3 times, and takes a big hit, and he gets taken out for a "bruised elbow" and comes back next quarter, his injury rating should drop to maybe 40, since he's already injured, and hurting. Then if he takes maybe another big hit, or a blindside sack, maybe now he has a broken rib, out for 4 weeks, and his injury rating falls to a 0 (since he cannot play). Then when he returns in the 4 weeks, his injury rating should no longer max out at 75, maybe 65 for example, meaning now he can take that many less hits before he is injured again. While he's injured, his attributes should also take a drop. If he has a bruised rib, maybe he will be less mobile, or lose throw power. This would help the game I think, from players like Darren Sproles or Reggie Bush taking 40 touches a game, or Calvin being thrown to 25 times a game. This would create another need for subbing in 2nd team players as well. And this can happen to any player, if there's a guy in your CFM, who takes a lot of sacks, their QB should wear down during the season, maybe its Peyton Manning, at 35 and over he may be more fragile. So if he's taking these hits over and over, maybe Peyton's injury rating through the season goes from 88 down to a 67 because he's being demolished throughout the season. On the flip side, say you have Matt Forte and Kadeem Carey, and you rotate them in and out, it will lower chance of injury, keep your backs fresh, and maybe their injury rating would improve, because each of them are taking few hits per game, and feeling good. Each injury that is sustained, will take off an extra chunk of your injury rating. So maybe a bruised sternum is only a 2 point injury deduction, where a torn ACL will take 15-20 off of your injury rating. Then you will have to ease a player back into action, getting him fresh again, keeping him away from contact, before he comes back as your go-to guy, or maybe you sit him for pre-season, to get him healthy. Sausage, Emman2013, HC0023 and 5 others like this.

08-12-2014, 04:34 PM	#4
Big FN Deal Banned OVR: 33 Join Date: Aug 2011	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game @BreakingBad2013, exactly, I was pretty much thinking along the same lines of fatigue, injury and ratings modifying with regard to "player preservation" but my OP ran long, lol. What I would add to what you already stated is having animations present in such a system, that compliment what's happening under the hood. Meaning having fatigue, injury and ratings modification have a tangible and observable impact on players on the field, when applicable. Players slow to get up, limping, favoring, trying to walk it off, etc, animations that represent the results of bodies violently and repeatedly colliding over the course of a game, season or career. Like you mentioned, someone wants to have their receiver expose their ribs reaching for a high pass over the middle or hit stick every time with a defender fine but make those decisions have risk, not just the reward. To your point, every result doesn't need to be a player is knocked out the game, having their execution and effectiveness diminished is enough and potentially better, as a regulator. The last thing I'll mention is fatigue should be way more impactful in-game. For example, I watched a User control a player on Kickoff coverage, run all over the field, weaving through would be blockers and still make the tackle from behind. Fatigue should be tuned so each players essentially has so much "gas"/wind to operate at top capacity, period, not just when using sprint, so they'll be incentivized to try to find the shortest route to their destination. hanzsomehanz, thinkjoey and bucky60 like this.

08-12-2014, 04:52 PM	#5
HoundsOfHowl @HoundsOfHowl OVR: 5 Join Date: Jul 2009 Posts: 797 Blog Entries: 3	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game I think EA's Madden team should incorporate the injury system from EA UFC, like stated above The "Longevity" should be included in. Could even have a toggle switch for this for CFM's. Just like above, if you are playing with this on and you are having your backs play every play each game and they are taking hits it should lower your career longevity, forcing an early retirement. It should be based on % of plays played, hits, big hits (would have more impact), and injuries (so if you take a broken leg it will lower some stats or increase that longevity meter.) You could incorporate it as a stat. 0 being perfect, 100 being retirement. And you could possibly slow longevity by sending players that get near the top to the physical therapist. Just a little thought. thinkjoey and Big FN Deal like this.

08-12-2014, 04:58 PM	#6
kcchiefs1984 Rookie OVR: 1 Join Date: Sep 2011	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game Nice posts guys. There are so many great thoughts on this forum everyday. Prior to these ideas being implemented, we would need formation subs so we don't have the nickel corner lined up as a gunner or any other example of what would be considered bad coaching and poor roster management. That will probably need to wait a few more years though due to relocated team jersey improvements. Start with the most important details and go from there. bucky60, iBleedOrange247 and Big FN Deal like this.

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08-12-2014, 05:08 PM	#7
BreakingBad2013 Pro OVR: 0 Join Date: Aug 2013 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game @BIG FN DEAL : Don't try to agree with me you Redskins Fan!!! Just kidding, I think that would be cool. Also in terms of presentation maybe a graphic of previous injuries and injury lengths. Also a good thing would be after a long game of someone taking a lot of hits, or getting in the middle of the defense all day, they maybe show the player walking to the line slowly, and talking about him taking a beating today etc. Lastly, to top it off, this would also justify a need for a top flight medical staff. Maybe the higher rated staffs will allow an injury rating boost after half-time, or a toughness rating to all players under 30 or something like that. And of course, be able to return from injury quicker or slower, weather it be a quarter instead of a half; or 5 weeks instead of 8! They should hire me. Emman2013, thinkjoey, bucky60 and 2 others like this.

08-12-2014, 05:13 PM	#8
BreakingBad2013 Pro OVR: 0 Join Date: Aug 2013 Blog Entries: 2	Re: Regulating The Game In The Game How could we/they make it just as impact for defensive players? I mean you can't hurt players for making MORE tackles, or being too involved on D right? I think maybe the tackling and play recognition attributes and realistic physics would be able to wear down defensive players. Maybe if you keep trying to tackle Adrian Peterson with your small CB, every hit would deal so much punishment. I think the Tackling and play recognition attributes/aware could be in effect here because if you have players on your team with a poor tackling rating, maybe they lead with their head, or arm tackle, thus increasing possibility of injury. Play recognition/aware, maybe the lower it is, the higher chance of you being de-cleated or crack blocked without knowing. bucky60, iBleedOrange247 and Big FN Deal like this.

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