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Sim or not sim?

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Old 01-02-2015, 02:20 AM   #17
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Re: Sim or not sim?

TBH, his numbers are skewed because I called him out after he ran 8 of his first 9 plays from a Trips left formation and 5 of his first 7 passes were slants/drags. He did mix it up more after, but still went 10 straight plays of big dime and still would run a lot of deep crossers with drags underneath.

I'm a stats guy and I always tell my guys, if you can justify it numerically in real life, its probably reasonable. Stafford throws 5 slants a game but that is out of 30-40 passes. This guy throws 7-8 out of 25 (typically). He's also got Chris Johnson and likes to run outside a lot. He mixes in inside runs bc he knows he has to but be sure you will see a lot of strong power from pistol and HB force from Strong close along with a few counters every game. He'll use the HB screen and occasionally the inside run where he lets the suction blocking start and then heads straight to the sideline to out run it.

I mean, this guy isn't a complete cheese head. We've had a few of those. But he's just the type of guy that, when the chips are down, will do whatever it takes to win. OK for some leagues, even some sim leagues. But we're more about trying to be as realistic as possible and not going to your 4th HB screen or 8th slant or 5th counter just to convert a key first down.

I actually talked to several members of the league and they all found him to be pretty cheesy when it counted. He came out in FG block against me one game when I was beating him 38-7 and trying to run out the clock. I guess he's just got a history. So we voted to remove him. Wasn't just his play but also his attitude. I'm fine if you are God's gift to Madden and you can run a variety of plays, but coming out in the same formations and running the same basic concepts that are incredibly difficult to stop over and over doesn't make you great. It just makes you good at doing what's easy.

Like I said, don't call the same formation or route or concept on consecutive plays on offense, call all types of plays and fronts on defense and win... cool. You're a boss. But running the same basic stuff over and over is just weak sauce where we come from. I know others differ and we may take it further than others. But its fun and challenging for us. Definitely was good to get some differing insights though.
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Old 01-02-2015, 03:03 AM   #18
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Sim or not sim?

Is he a Saints fan?

I ask because Rob Ryan loves to run sets like this. 3 CBs and 3 safeties, with the 3rd safety (usually Vaccaro) playing rover. The safety will pick up man or play the run or blitz. He does everything. This year, we had a lot of safeties hurt so Rob Ryan kinda strayed from that scheme but he ran it non-stop in 2013.
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Old 01-02-2015, 02:43 PM   #19
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Re: Sim or not sim?

He is. And I'm not questioning his running it and using it. He's just gone games where he would ONLY run it and would rely on it heavily when the standard 3-4 wasn't working. Again, it was a history of him doing a lot of things. This past game a whole doesn't look terrible because he was trying to adjust after getting called out. But his history showed he would do whatever he needed to in order to win which wasn't the type of player we ourselves were really looking for
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:15 PM   #20
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Re: Sim or not sim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by majesty95
TBH, his numbers are skewed because I called him out after he ran 8 of his first 9 plays from a Trips left formation and 5 of his first 7 passes were slants/drags. He did mix it up more after, but still went 10 straight plays of big dime and still would run a lot of deep crossers with drags underneath.

I'm a stats guy and I always tell my guys, if you can justify it numerically in real life, its probably reasonable. Stafford throws 5 slants a game but that is out of 30-40 passes. This guy throws 7-8 out of 25 (typically). He's also got Chris Johnson and likes to run outside a lot. He mixes in inside runs bc he knows he has to but be sure you will see a lot of strong power from pistol and HB force from Strong close along with a few counters every game. He'll use the HB screen and occasionally the inside run where he lets the suction blocking start and then heads straight to the sideline to out run it.

I mean, this guy isn't a complete cheese head. We've had a few of those. But he's just the type of guy that, when the chips are down, will do whatever it takes to win. OK for some leagues, even some sim leagues. But we're more about trying to be as realistic as possible and not going to your 4th HB screen or 8th slant or 5th counter just to convert a key first down.

I actually talked to several members of the league and they all found him to be pretty cheesy when it counted. He came out in FG block against me one game when I was beating him 38-7 and trying to run out the clock. I guess he's just got a history. So we voted to remove him. Wasn't just his play but also his attitude. I'm fine if you are God's gift to Madden and you can run a variety of plays, but coming out in the same formations and running the same basic concepts that are incredibly difficult to stop over and over doesn't make you great. It just makes you good at doing what's easy.

Like I said, don't call the same formation or route or concept on consecutive plays on offense, call all types of plays and fronts on defense and win... cool. You're a boss. But running the same basic stuff over and over is just weak sauce where we come from. I know others differ and we may take it further than others. But its fun and challenging for us. Definitely was good to get some differing insights though.
Sometimes it is not easy to identify cheese or similar. And the limitations of the game make it that much harder to walk the line so to speak. Perhaps the biggest problem with this is the game's lack of adequate AI. If you are going to run 5 straight slants the CB should catch on. Until this gets fixed it will remain a problem. Defense still needs an overhaul in my opinion.

But while we are on this subject, allow me to describe some of what I do and you guys tell me what you think of it on the cheese-o-meter.

In any given game, for each down and distance there are typically about 5 concepts I use. A good example is second and short. The formations vary but you will probably see one of the following:
(these are not necessarily plays but rather concepts)
1. Stick
2. Spot
3. Inside or outside zone run
4. levels, e.g. x under
5. curl flat

The list changes for each down. You will very rarely see stick on 1st down, but expect to see it multiple times on 2nd/3rd and short. And depending on the game the concepts may change in the second half. You started user covering my TE on the stick route? 4th quarter you will see the stick and nod play.

And as far as formations go, well this is where I side with that guy. In one game I may spend 60% of my time in a 1RB/2TE/2WR set. Next game it may be 60% of "11" personnel. But I am probably running the same crap in both games. Only change are the matchups. The alignment also changes; that 60% will be split between a slot alignment and slot strong for example.

In the past someone told me I am borderline cheesy because I only use a few concepts. My answer is well yeah I only use a few concepts. My offense is built around high-lo reads and stretching the defense horizontally. I'm not much of a vertical passer (possibly not the best fit with my Ravens but oh well). My offense can be stopped, if you got corners that can press I am going to have to adapt.

The lack of adaptive AI does make it too easy to run an actual offense, but I would love to see the AI improved because it would open up the chess match and I would love that. Because there are two sides to the adaptive AI coin. We all know the one side, but I would be excited for the other side -- double moves and setting up plays. Right now a hitch and go might be one of the worst routes you can call. But if the corner is jumping that hitch because you used it frequently in the 1st half? Mama mia!! Same thing for levels divide. Defense is on to it? That is when I call smash. That is literally stealing from the Peyton on the Colts playbook.

Personally I think I am in a rough spot. On the one hand I think I run a very realistic NFL offense, at the same time however due to the limitations in the game an argument could be made that it is cheesy. Thoughts?

Edit: I should clarify something, outside of run plays (75% of which are zone runs) I rarely use the same stuff back to back. I am definitely not like your guy in that regard. It comes off as a one trick pony. For slants in particular, I rarely call a play with a slant route. In my offense a slant is called at the line. How often I make that read depends. How often are you man blitzing? The exception is in a 3x1 set. Pretty safe bet that weakside WR is running a slant. But in the 4th quarter I am counting on you making that bet.

Last edited by ggsimmonds; 01-02-2015 at 09:23 PM.
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:01 PM   #21
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Re: Sim or not sim?

I agree that the D needs to be much better. The defenders used to be able to read and jump certain routes if you threw them too much. They still do to a degree (especially outs) but I'm not sure if it is learned or just random.

As I tried to explain to this guy, in real life a coach can go to this players and say, "ok. They are eating us up with slants. I want you guys to play shallower in your hook zones. In short yardage when we are in man, cut them off inside. Force them up and outside."

You just can't do that in this game. I just played the CPU and gave up three big corner routes vs man. I also gave up a couple of underneath routes even though I was playing "inside" coverage.

Inside and outside coverage needs to be a tad more effective. You need to see the DB walling off the receiver from getting inside. It shouldn't always happen but enough that it can create that chess match. OK, he's trying to take away the slant/drag, let me go corner or out.

The underneath coverage needs to be better too. Right now they are more likely to jump an underneath pass it seems but they don't actually play shallower zones. I'd also like to see the "spotlight" feature return as well as manual assignments.

I realize corners don't follow guys as much any more, but if I have a 6-2 corner with 90+ man and press and good speed, you better believe I want him manned up on Calvin Johnson every play if I'm playing the Lions. That also allows for strategy as guys can then look to try and get their 2nd and 3rd receivers involved. The matchup stick helps, but not when you can't dictate your matchups on defense, only offense.

With all of that being said, I think they have a good base here. If they can tweak the defense and your defensive options vs corners, slants and drags then you will force guys to open up more of their playbooks. That will also naturally reduce cheese. Hopefully that is the intent. Add the offensive options this year and balance them with defense next year. Then, hopefully, we will finally have a balanced game where strategy and execution dominate and not abuse of AI limitations.
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:42 PM   #22
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Re: Sim or not sim?

Sorry but what an individual player views as sim is going to vary wildly from one person to another. Football like anything else is a very personal experience, for fans, those who play or have played the game, etc. Everyone involved with the game on any level has different levels of understanding, expectations, and philosophy.

Ultimately if a dude is running a particular formation or play or concept that you're having trouble shutting down, it's on you to call upon your experience to shut him down. Just because you can not stop it does not mean nobody can. It also doesn't mean that the concept or the way he is managing the game is not sim. Football is simply about one group of guys trying to achieve a goal and the other group of guys working to stop them. It's not about getting the stat sheet to mirror real NFL averages, a lot of NFL games don't mirror NFL averages.

I don't believe that there is one particular way of going about it that is superior to all others. Study and understand the style, and develop something to counter it. It doesn't mean that it will work, but that's what you're there to do anyways, I promise if you do that you will at least cause him to adjust and that's what it's about.
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Old 01-05-2015, 03:53 PM   #23
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Re: Sim or not sim?

Quote:
Originally Posted by majesty95
....

With all of that being said, I think they have a good base here. If they can tweak the defense and your defensive options vs corners, slants and drags then you will force guys to open up more of their playbooks. That will also naturally reduce cheese. Hopefully that is the intent. Add the offensive options this year and balance them with defense next year. Then, hopefully, we will finally have a balanced game where strategy and execution dominate and not abuse of AI limitations.
I have come close to posting in this thread a few times but decided against until I just noticed the bold. Basically the thread title is "realistic or not realistic", with Madden fundamentally being not realistic, therefore making most things in-game play out unrealistic too. They do not have a good base in Madden for realistic football, evidenced by the way the game plays out versus just focusing on the results.

For example if a defense showing underneath pass coverage successfully defends comeback routes in Madden by the defender playing over the top of the receiver but being able to get under them when the ball is thrown, that's a poor base with realistic results.

That example is a slight exaggeration but that's Madden's "base" in a nutshell, trying to achieve plausible outcomes without implementing elements for proper context. It reminds me of math class in grade school, when the teacher would always stress writing out everything, not just the answer so they could see both your answer and the process.
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Old 01-06-2015, 04:16 PM   #24
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Re: Sim or not sim?

therewillbechud - you have given the same answer as many, its not him its you, yet wouldn't an example of how to consistently stop those routes solidify your point? I don't know if you fall into this category, but I think many guys that think they are be realistic and "abusing" certain things by other's accounts justify by saying "it can be stopped" yet I never seem to see them post how to actually stop it.

Big FN Deal - I disagree. I think they do have a pretty good base. One much better than anything else we've seen in a video game. You can break down any game and tear apart its "realism." But they are video games and will never be perfect. Howevr, I think they have a base that allows them to build and improve upon in the future. I do not think they are very far away from a great game with limited cheese options. They just aren't there yet.
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