Draft Changes for Future Madden Titles

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

With just an editor in the game and no likeness of any person there is zero ground for a lawsuit and no one would even be able to get a lawsuit past a judicial hearing.

IANAL and all, but I don't believe that's 100% correct.

There's a concept of "secondary liability" in which a software author can be held liable for creating software enabling with which a user may use to break copyright law. I'm pretty sure this was the crux of the lawsuit against YouTube filed by Viacom, etc. regarding users of YouTube posting copyrighted content such as music on the website without permission.

It gets complicated with stuff like the Digital Millennium Copyright Act, the concept of "fair use", and whatnot, and I'm not sure to what end a person's likeness is governed by this law (as opposed to a copyrighted logo or music recording), but I wouldn't be surprised if many companies - EA included - just don't want to fool with the potential legal liability anymore on account of how many lawsuits have been flung around over the past decade.

Again, though - I'm not a lawyer, please correct me if I'm wrong.

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Again, though - I'm not a lawyer, please correct me if I'm wrong.

You would know more about it than I would given the industry you are in.


But asking to be able to customize draft classes is no different than what roster makers have been doing to the minor leagues in the Show for years, pretty sure if SCEA was liable for that somehow we would have heard by now.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

You would know more about it than I would given the industry you are in. But asking to be able to customize draft classes is no different than what roster makers have been doing to the minor leagues in the Show for years, pretty sure if SCEA was liable for that somehow we would have heard by now.

I hear you on that, and I'm similarly frustrated with respect to the lack of draft class editing in Madden.

The one other thing I can think of to that end is that the NFL and NCAA are much bigger and easier targets than their other American sports counterparts. The Show sells a fraction of the combined sales of Madden and NCAA did, and football is a more popular sport in general, so there's more money at stake targeting the NFL and NCAA.

Speaking anecdotally, I also don't get the impression that there's a group of former baseball or basketball players as hell-bent on litigation as there is former football players, who are suing about concussions, historic teams in Madden, use of their likeness while participating in amateur athletics, and whatever else.

[Steel4Reel]

Quote: Originally Posted by JaymeeAwesome

I don't know why you are being so closed minded. I'm trying to open your eyes to possibilities.

If thats what youre trying, youre failing at it miserably, because for the most part, you are the one coming off as "closed minded" to the "possibilities".

Quote:

The world is lawsuit crazy and something like this could happen, just low probability that it will.

Then why do anything?

You can be sued for really stupid things, so why even take the risks of even going out in public?

Dude, there is no risk in this unless you created a draft class then tried to sell it.

Creating a draft class and sharing it for free amongst common fans is not against the law and a lawsuit wouldnt go anywhere unless there was proof a person was making profit off of the likenesses of those players or the NFL.

Its the same reason you can write fanfiction based on real things without permission, create characters based on real life people on games like WWE and the reason you can create real life teams on NCAA teambuilder and share them with everyone.

There is no notable legal issue here, no matter how much you want them to be. There is no way someone can be sued from this when there is no financial gain being made....unless there is something that defames the character of a person being depicted....but thats a different issue altogether.

Seriously, answer this flat out....what is the exact legal precedent for filing a lawsuit in case like this?

If you cant answer this question, just kill this line of discussion, because youve already lost.

Quote:

I would just prefer that EA keeps making NFL games. If they allow customization, I know I wouldn't use it.

EA isnt going to stop making football games....not even sure what your point is with that.

You not wanting customization is the only issue here, and youre trying to force your preferences onto other people.

You talk about closed mindedness, but fail to see how closed minded youre being.

If you dont want customization DONT USE IT....and more than that, stop trying to make stuff up and act like there are issues that arent even really there.

There are people who want things put in the game that I dont really want. I dont try to make up some bogus law issues to shoot them down. I may comment on it once, but I dont show up every time its being discussed and say "No, I dont want that, so its not needed in the game".

Quote:

It's starting to seem like you are not respecting my opinions and thoughts. I never once put down your thoughts on why full customization is your idea of a good draft change for the future.

Actually, youve come across as unintentionally disrespectful several times, because every time someone mentions customization on here, you try to shoot it down and act like its not needed.

Im going to lay it out simply for you....

IF YOU DO NOT WANT CUSTOMIZATION, YOU ARE COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED TO FEEL THAT WAY. HOWEVER, PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR PREFERENCES ARE WHATS "RIGHT" LIKE CUSTOMIZATION IS NOT NEEDED SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT IT. YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY FREE TO EXPRESS WHATEVER OPINIONS YOU WANT, BUT WHEN YOU CONTINUOUSLY TRY TO SHOOT DOWN REQUESTS FOR MORE CUSTOMIZATION, IT COMES ACROSS AS BIT DISRESPECTFUL.

Quote:

This topic is not a right or wrong topic.

In terms of wanting/not wanting customization? No, there is no right or wrong. Thats opinion.

In terms of your outlook from a legal standpoint....you are wrong. Its that simple. You can reach all you want, but you are just wrong.

[Toupal]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steel4Reel

If thats what youre trying, youre failing at it miserably, because for the most part, you are the one coming off as "closed minded" to the "possibilities". Then why do anything? You can be sued for really stupid things, so why even take the risks of even going out in public? Dude, there is no risk in this unless you created a draft class then tried to sell it. Creating a draft class and sharing it for free amongst common fans is not against the law and a lawsuit wouldnt go anywhere unless there was proof a person was making profit off of the likenesses of those players or the NFL. Its the same reason you can write fanfiction based on real things without permission, create characters based on real life people on games like WWE and the reason you can create real life teams on NCAA teambuilder and share them with everyone. There is no notable legal issue here, no matter how much you want them to be. There is no way someone can be sued from this when there is no financial gain being made....unless there is something that defames the character of a person being depicted....but thats a different issue altogether. Seriously, answer this flat out....what is the exact legal precedent for filing a lawsuit in case like this? If you cant answer this question, just kill this line of discussion, because youve already lost. EA isnt going to stop making football games....not even sure what your point is with that. You not wanting customization is the only issue here, and youre trying to force your preferences onto other people. You talk about closed mindedness, but fail to see how closed minded youre being. If you dont want customization DONT USE IT....and more than that, stop trying to make stuff up and act like there are issues that arent even really there. There are people who want things put in the game that I dont really want. I dont try to make up some bogus law issues to shoot them down. I may comment on it once, but I dont show up every time its being discussed and say "No, I dont want that, so its not needed in the game". Actually, youve come across as unintentionally disrespectful several times, because every time someone mentions customization on here, you try to shoot it down and act like its not needed. Im going to lay it out simply for you.... IF YOU DO NOT WANT CUSTOMIZATION, YOU ARE COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED TO FEEL THAT WAY. HOWEVER, PLEASE STOP ACTING LIKE YOUR PREFERENCES ARE WHATS "RIGHT" LIKE CUSTOMIZATION IS NOT NEEDED SIMPLY BECAUSE YOU DO NOT WANT IT. YOU ARE OBVIOUSLY FREE TO EXPRESS WHATEVER OPINIONS YOU WANT, BUT WHEN YOU CONTINUOUSLY TRY TO SHOOT DOWN REQUESTS FOR MORE CUSTOMIZATION, IT COMES ACROSS AS BIT DISRESPECTFUL. In terms of wanting/not wanting customization? No, there is no right or wrong. Thats opinion. In terms of your outlook from a legal standpoint....you are wrong. Its that simple. You can reach all you want, but you are just wrong.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Steel4Reel

Seriously, answer this flat out....what is the exact legal precedent for filing a lawsuit in case like this?

Hart v Electronic Arts, In re NCAA Student-Athlete Name & Likeness Litig. (the summary judgment of the Sam Keller case), and No Doubt v. Activision Publ’g, Inc. is a good starting point.

These cases established a "transformative test"; is the user of the personality (in this case, the video game developer) transforming the personality to an extent that the representation of personality can be considered an original work, and thus protected under the First Amendment and removing any claim by the plaintiff to a violation of personality rights?

In all three cases, the answer was "no"; the defendants (the video game companies) were not transforming the personalities to an extent as to affect their claims to personality rights violations. In the football games' cases, it was found that changing a player's appearance (such as equipment, hair style, etc.) was not sufficient to create an original work, and thus was not protected under the First Amendment. Further, the digital representation of the athletes were performing the same virtual activity as their real-life counterparts did to gain their public recognition - play football. This is also not considered transformative.

This is also an evolving section of the law - Brown v. Electronic Arts used a different test to determine whether First Amendment protections applied, and reached a favorable conclusion for EA. This test, the "Rogers test", is a two-pronged test that looks the use of the image as a whole and its artistic relevance. EA has appealed the Keller case judgment on those grounds, wanting to have this standard applied to NCAA Football rather than the previously-described transformative test.

None of this explicitly considers user-generated content at all, no. However, given the concept and potential application of secondary liability I described in a previous post (the idea that a software author can be held liable for enabling copyright violations) - on top of the fact that the NFL, NCAA, and Electronic Arts are huge targets for litigation in the first place - I can begrudgingly understand why EA wouldn't even want to open that can of worms.

Source: Minnesota Lawyer

[NDAlum]

The case against EA for player likeness is completely reasonable

What some guys are thinking could happen is completely unreasonable

Reasonableness is a huge part in the court system. Yes there are times when extraordinary circumstances can overrule this.

[ABR173rd]

Quote: Originally Posted by cusefan74

Well what do you want? What can you do with it to make it better? I mean it's the draft. You ever watch the real draft on TV? Boring! It's not like it's a big exciting thing. The way things are now I would say there is a good chance of someone getting sued. There is a big difference between someone drawing a picture and keeping it to themselves, and someone making a likeness and posting online for the whole world to see. I would say a couple of years ago, no big deal, now huge deal. I'm not saying someone would get sued if they did it, but I think it's something they have to think about. Now if you are not allowed to share it with other people and keep it to yourself that's different.

CFM is supposed to be simulating you as the Owner/Coach/Player not as an individual spectating. The experience of watching the draft from home is much different than as a member of the front office who has been analyzing the players being drafted. The presentation as it currently stands needs a lot of improvement and being able to edit draft classes which has been implemented in sports games since Sega Genesis is a no brainer.

The whole legal perspective is silly, common sense would dictate that currently you can download rosters with all of the rookies via Madden so how would that differ from creating them in CFM?

If your argument is that Madden has loads of issues and that the time allocated towards working on improving the draft would yield better value elsewhere in the game I would probably agree.

One of the bigger issues relating to the draft is the need for actual scouts and for there to be a cost/benefit to having better scouts and a way to evaluate them at the end of each season. An example would be a side by side comparison of each scouts report on a specific player in relation to the players actual skills once drafted as a way of evaluating a scouts prowess.