Veteran/Rookie speed scaling according to Donny Moore

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by D81SKINS

I would just say adrenaline does make for some guys being able to do things on the field that others cant. It's not always just what they ran on the track and technique. How does a scout measure this? It's about what they do IN GAMES.

I don't know about that adrenaline argument. I still play ball and I don't recall the feeling of being chased as a factor in me ever outrunning a guy. In fact, getting hyped up can actually have more negative affects when trying to run fast. It tightens up your upper body and doesn't make you as fluid. The fastest sprinters try to stay relaxed. Watch their jaws when they run - they flap around rather loosely. I recall practicing good sprinting form (elbows bent at 90 degrees, relaxed upper body, etc) as a part of regular football practices going back to middle school. Training athletes to get even 1% better with their running form could make the difference between scoring on a play and getting stopped at the one.

I am currently training at the Michael Johnson Performance Center in McKinney, TX and you wouldn't believe how many NFL players (not including rookies who were just drafted) use their services to learn better running form in the offseason. I had the pleasure of working out with a couple of them this spring and summer, and it was a blast. To them, it is all about making many small gains to add up to a larger gain over their competition. The coaches and trainers there are complete technicians. These are players who are focusing on being more explosive and having better technique, and are NOT training to run the 40. They are training to be FASTER. On of the things my trainer always tells me is to simply stay relaxed. I have a tendency to get too 'amped up' before a sprint, especially in a timed session. It makes me less fluid and tight, which hurts my flexibility.

Sprinting is all about stride length x stride turnover (RPMs). Being loose allows you to be more fluid. Having too much adrenaline and not being calm can hurt that. These are pretty simple principals.


The other thing you mention is about scouts using what they see in games to measure speed. I don't find that to be true at all. I have written and read thousands of scouting reports in my day, and very, very little of a player profile has anything to do with their speed in the game. What will typically be listed is their 40 time and their splits to represent their potential for speed in ideal conditions. Scouting reports that contain a wealth of subjective data instead break down the technique of a player. They use this analysis to determine if that potential for speed transitions well onto the field, but it never determines if the player is actually slower.

In football, I would say that the majority of what is important for every position is technical, not athletic. Sure, being superior athletically helps, but it doesn't mean that a player will be successful. Look at Troy Williamson. He was a burner, but couldn't read coverages or run any route aside from a 9. That doesn't mean that he was slower though. It means that he didn't have the technical capacity to realize his athletic potential on the field.

The same follows for guys like Jerry Rice. He ran a 4.58. Not a burner, but his technical skills were among the greatest of all time for his position. Watch the old cutups of him running routes with the 49ers in the 80s at practices. DBs could backpedal as fast as he could run coming straight at him. However, he would take a cushion of 1 yard at the top of his stem and turn it into 5 yards out of his break. His ability to run routes at full speed (albeit, 4.58 speed) is what made him special. Most WRs don't run routes correctly. They slow down too much. They don't utilize pressure steps.

Kids at The U weren't even learning them. I was privileged to attend a coaching clinic at UW-Madison in 2006 and I was shocked to find out that the WR coaches at Miami didn't even teach pressure steps. Instead, they relied heavily on crisp, choppy, but slow, cuts. Using pressure steps will make you faster in your break, but will make your cuts look rounded at the top of the stem. Some guys don't like that, but it is the best way to run routes at higher speed. It gives the DB less time to react and doesn't give you as much of a chance to give the route away.


I know I have digressed a lot from your original comment, but in reality "game speed" is what people erroneously use to lump a multitude of technique-related skills into one category that they can't otherwise explain. They see a "slow" LB like Zach Thomas get to a ball carrier who is way faster than him in the hole and think that some magical power or adrenaline made him get there faster. However, what the amateur doesn't realize is that Thomas probably saw the play a hundred times on film, found a key to the play (play recognition), and got a jump to the hole before the ball carrier could hit it. He wasn't faster than the ball carrier; his instincts and superior recognition skills allowed him to get to the spot very efficiently...even if he only possessed 4.80 speed.

[bgoffner]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

Use of the "technique" ratings at a larger or wider scale. Honestly, this should be obvious by now. In terms of raw physical ability, there is not that much separating the best in the game from bottom of rosters. The technicians, the craftsmen, the guys who spend countless hours studying film are the guys that consistently isolate themselves as the best of the best. The techniques, and knowing, without thinking,which to use are what separates starters from probowlers. It is time for EA to put a greater emphasis on the "technique" ratings in order to more accurately portray the NFL in their game... Take OL/DL interactions - currently STR rating still dictates win/loss outcomes - which is ridiculous - STR should only be determining which player is gaining/losing ground - PBK vs FMV/PMV should determine how long the block is maintained for passing situations and BKS vs RBK should determine how long blocks are maintained during running situations. STR only should factor into the tie checks for determining which way the two players are moving. Now obviously angles and leverage would have to be factored into the equation - but STR should not determine how long blocks are held - the lone exception being as a variable within bull rush scenarios....

FINALLY!! I agree... AWR shud be the most important attribute. It shud determine how true each player plays out their attributes..Im tired of 55 ovr fast players dominating the game

[D81SKINS]

Wait till you get hit and see if your adrenaline level changes lol.
I'm not saying it "just" makes players faster, I'm saying it plays a part when your in the heat of the battle.
It's not "just" technique at all times. I would say athleticism, instinct, and adrenaline can make for some crazy plays (ie. M. Lynch, Jim Brown, Bo Jackson, Barry Sanders). Would anyone say these players were technicians at their position.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by D81SKINS

Wait till you get hit and see if your adrenaline level changes lol. I'm not saying it "just" makes players faster, I'm saying it plays a part when your in the heat of the battle. It's not "just" technique at all times

Getting hit is normal, for me anyway. I get hit in practice. I get hit in games. I can't speak for everyone but getting hit is normal to those who play the game regularly. I play TE for a semi-pro team and I get hit a lot, especially while going over the middle against LBs that have 30lbs on me. It doesn't change my adrenaline one bit. Maybe it's because I have been playing this game so long. All I know is when I run a route, I am focused on so many things aside from the hit, which is coming anyway, that it doesn't really phase me much.

I can only imagine that it is just as normal for those who do it professionally as those who do it on a semi-professional basis.

[D81SKINS]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

Getting hit is normal, for me anyway. I get hit in practice. I get hit in games. I can't speak for everyone but getting hit is normal to those who play the game regularly. I play TE for a semi-pro team and I get hit a lot, especially while going over the middle against LBs that have 30lbs on me. It doesn't change my adrenaline one bit. Maybe it's because I have been playing this game so long. All I know is when I run a route, I am focused on so many things aside from the hit, which is coming anyway, that it doesn't really phase me much. I can only imagine that it is just as normal for those who do it professionally as those who do it on a semi-professional basis.

Yeah your right, adrenaline is a myth too Smh
Just b/c you can't quantify it, doesn't mean it's not possible.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...e-rush/#page=1
Your theory on "in game speed" and adrenaline is the myth imo. I believe there is a difference in game speed vs practice speed.
Coaches watch game film to scout players, not track and field cutups.
The combine gives you an idea of what a player can do but coaches should always make their final judgment off of game film.
Good example from last night's game, Teddy Bridgewater.

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by D81SKINS

Yeah your right, adrenaline is a myth too. Smh Just b/c you can't quantify it, doesn't mean it's not possible. http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...e-rush/#page=1

I never said that adrenaline is a myth and never said that it was quantifiable either, I just said that I never really experience it while getting hit. I am not going to speak for everyone, I get more of the butterflies in my stomach feeling at the start of a game. Then, once I get that first hit, it all goes away pretty quickly. I wouldn't call that the same as an adrenaline rush, however. I think that is more like a nervous feeling - not wanting to mess anything up (wrong route, dropping a ball, missing a block, etc). Keep in mind that I am 30 and have been playing this game for over 2 decades at a variety of levels. I just don't get that "rush" that you are expecting football players to have while running on the field. I am simply saying that from my own experience, I have never had that feeling on the field with the ball in my hands.

I would describe the feeling more like "OK, I have the ball. Now I gotta react and evade as quickly as possible." I already know that people are chasing me. I already know that they are not rabid rottweilers. I already know that I am likely going to get hit/tackled. I just don't get that sense of the adrenaline rush that you may be expecting. Butterflies before a game or during the first snap, sure. Adrenaline, not really.

Once again, I am not speaking for everyone; this is just based on my own experience. The best athletes I have played with were always the cool, calm, relaxed ones who think of what they do as routine, not the ones who get a tensed up. The tense ones who don't realize that it is just a game are the ones who don't get into it mentally and make the most mistakes.

I think we can simply agree to disagree on this part of the whole "game speed" argument.

[D81SKINS]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I never said that adrenaline is a myth and never said that it was quantifiable either, I just said that I never really experience it while getting hit. I am not going to speak for everyone, I get more of the butterflies in my stomach feeling at the start of a game. Then, once I get that first hit, it all goes away pretty quickly. I wouldn't call that the same as an adrenaline rush, however. I think that is more like a nervous feeling - not wanting to mess anything up (wrong route, dropping a ball, missing a block, etc). Keep in mind that I am 30 and have been playing this game for over 2 decades at a variety of levels. I just don't get that "rush" that you are expecting football players to have while running on the field. I am simply saying that from my own experience, I have never had that feeling on the field with the ball in my hands. I would describe the feeling more like "OK, I have the ball. Now I gotta react and evade as quickly as possible." I already know that people are chasing me. I already know that they are not rabid rottweilers. I already know that I am likely going to get hit/tackled. I just don't get that sense of the adrenaline rush that you may be expecting. Butterflies before a game or during the first snap, sure. Adrenaline, not really. Once again, I am not speaking for everyone; this is just based on my own experience. The best athletes I have played with were always the cool, calm, relaxed ones who think of what they do as routine, not the ones who get a tensed up. The tense ones who don't realize that it is just a game are the ones who don't get into it mentally and make the most mistakes. I think we can simply agree to disagree on this part of the whole "game speed" argument.

Yep, who says adrenaline has to get you tensed up lol? Sucks you've played so long and you've never had an adrenaline rush during games.
http://www.livestrong.com/article/20...e-rush/#page=1
As a basketball player, it actually slowed everything around me down and made it seem as if the basket was easier to hit.
So you believe there is a such thing as adrenaline but it doesn't play a factor on in game speed.
Yeah, we can just agree to disagree smh

[Beelzebot44]

Quote: Originally Posted by DCEBB2001

I have done a lot of analysis on this, and the simple facts are that players only lose about a tenth in the 40 time over the course of a 15 year career - if they make it that long. I posted in another thread, that Donald Driver went 9 full seasons before his 40 time increased, and it only increased about 0.02 seconds. The fact of the matter is that these players do NOT regress in speed as much as EA or anyone else would have you believe. In fact, the regression is actually pretty linear, to my surprise, and most players don't even start dropping until they hit the age of 32 or so. It is my firm belief that EA needs to drastically redo their SPD regression. The data says that it is nowhere near as drastic as they would have us believe.

Well, the elephant in the room is that speed is really the only thing that matters when you play. You can take any scrub 68 OVR WR with 99 SPD and break records with him. So really the only way to make players regress at all in the current system is to lower their speed.