Interesting article about the future of Madden

[JayhawkerStL]

Madden has never been a sim, and it was never supposed to be. At what point did any sports game that gamers control players with controllers ever become considered sim?




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[RGiles36]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gridiron

With all of that being what it is, the real honest and fair question is, does Madden really WANT to be a sim? Or, is what they're doing exactly what they really want to do?

This. This is what I've accepted a few years ago. Madden will always be a game that targets their core audience (as well they should). Yes, there will be concessions for the sim gamer and for the tourney gamer. But the game will always be a game created for the masses in an effort to bring on more fans/sales. That's where they've made their bones, and they're not going to alter their formula to appease the vocal sim minority despite what they publicly say about being a sim.

The proof is in the pudding. "Simulation" has been the stated goal going back to M10. I think what they were implying was a more serious product, but not a simulation in the vein of The Show and 2K. If they wanted a complete sim game, we would have it by now. That's not what we have and that's not the culture that surrounds the Madden product (look at the Madden highlights they share). It's truly a game where you have to get in where you fit in. I'm willing to do that, and accept that the game will never completely be targeted at me.

[Ampking101]

Quote: Originally Posted by DeuceDouglas

I understand the sentiment of wanting correct input to have positive results because that's how it's worked in virtually every game ever made. If I hit A to make Mario jump, I expect him to jump. If I aim at something in CoD I expect my shots to go there. And if there are random times in other games where it just decides randomly that I'm going to fail, it is annoying. Which is why it doesn't really make sense and I can't really give an explanation as to why it shouldn't be this way other than it's sports. It might be a cop out but sports is the only genre of game where I actually embrace some element of randomness and/or failure that is out of my control but I understand that this is against most gamers, especially today.

I would say (and correct me if I am wrong) the reason this is the case other than the "it's just sports", is because in most games, you are supposed to be that singular character and therefore have full control over them. In sports, you can't be every single player, it is SUPPOSED to be a team sport. Therefore if multiple people are playing it, it's possible for one player to make a mistake. We can't have a game where every single player on the field is controlled by a different player, this wouldn't be viable. So you add things to the game to to make it feel that way.

For example, take a shooter game, if you want an arcade experience, you pick up CoD, it isn't realistic and just gives you the illusion you are playing a military shooter. If you want a more accurate representation of real life, you play a game like Arma. Also you can't control every player on the battlefield on your side but they can make everyone on the battlefield a player, if someone makes a mistake it can make things much more exciting. You can't control if another player accidentally gives away your position and puts you in danger and now you have to find a way to make up for it and fight your way out of a precarious position.

Now back to madden, we can't have actual players in every position (no one would ever play oline), so we have to emulate that with ai decisions. If you remove any randomness like botched snaps, it takes the realism away because the ai is not emulating real life by being infallible. I think back to team play and how fun it was to be able to just have 3 players on a team (one for QB, one for WR, and one for HB or another WR). It made the game so fun when you had to weigh how much you trusted the other players not to make mistakes and how much they were able to make big plays vs their likelyhood of turning the ball over.


Edit:
I'd also just like to add that as a huge Dark Souls fan, a lot of people talk about the randomness that happens in that game being unfair; those that enjoy the game like me know that the randomness and sometimes unfair things that happen in that game make for some of the most intense and exciting gameplay I've ever experienced. Is it a game for everyone? No. Can it be super frustrating sometimes? Absolutely. I think Madden could take a page from this. Football isn't a game for everyone, the game should be frustrating sometimes while still being fun, it shouldn't be 100% predictable.


Edit#2:
I'll also add that botched snaps are less in line with Mario not jumping when you press the button and more in line when you press R1 when carrying the ball to protect the ball and your player still fumbles. It happens, I don't hear players complaining that it should be 100% effective that when you cover up the ball it should always work, it simply lowers the chances of putting the ball on the ground. Botched snaps would also go in line with this, as well as failed audibles. The more things you call at the line before snapping the ball should increase the likelyhood of a mistake. As it stands now there is literally no risk to calling 15 audibles before the ball is hiked and sure fake snapping can cause false starts which is nice but it should also sometimes cause a snap while not ready. If you have a high awareness QB, maybe he recognizes it and can quickly recover by catching it and having to collect himself before he can throw it or run where as a low awareness QB would take a lot longer to recover and it results in a fumble.

[SolidSquid]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jay D

Madden has never been a sim, and it was never supposed to be. At what point did any sports game that gamers control players with controllers ever become considered sim? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This is one of the weakest arguments in my opinion. Sure it's not a sim in the sense of the word, it's not a text sim where you're simply building rosters and managing the team and letting the game play out. I think when most madden players say sim they mean true to the game of football.

For example NBA 2k has a sim option and an arcade option. Sim features realistic things like fatigue and contact lowering make percentages where arcade is just the opposite.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Jay D

Madden has never been a sim, and it was never supposed to be. At what point did any sports game that gamers control players with controllers ever become considered sim? Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Controlling a player doesn't necessarily mean unsim. You can still make a sim game where controlling a player (stick skills) will only get you as close to the players ratings (attributes/skills) as possible (and not surpass those attributes ratings).

If someone decides to run every single play w/o any passing. You can make the game have the same outcome as if a real team did this. The CPU would load the BOX and you'd be punting after 3 downs. So the game can even make someones poor and unrealistic decisions have realistic outcomes.

[bjanko5]

Quote: Originally Posted by Gridiron

With all of that being what it is, the real honest and fair question is, does Madden really WANT to be a sim? Or, is what they're doing exactly what they really want to do?

I think the simple answer is no. Unfortunately the people here on operation sports and the people in sim leagues are in the minority. EA wants to create a game that appeals to the masses, a game that can be easily picked up by a casual player and they can have fun without knowing the intricacies of football or madden. That is who they try to appeal to. I understand it too, they are after all a business. With that said, I do wish they would cater a little more to the hardcore fan, and they could do that without giving up the casual appeal. Make a "sim" mode for gameplay and connected franchises that allows for more depth. That would require more resources though, and they may not want to dedicate more resources to something that realistically probably wouldn't increase their bottom line since the more hardcore people that it would cater to are already going to buy the game.

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

The esport types [...] have no place in Madden which is supposed to be a simulation of real to life football.

Equally as offensive of a counter-point: the pure simulation types have no place in Madden which is a competitive multiplayer interactive video game.

Obviously, neither of those statements are true and both are divisive, combative, and bad. However, I present the flip-side of the coin merely to make a point. The demonizing of e-sports isn't going to happen here, and really with as fast as the popularity of e-sports is rising it's a losing battle anyway.

[Ampking101]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Equally as offensive of a counter-point: the pure simulation types have no place in Madden which is a competitive multiplayer interactive video game. Obviously, neither of those statements are true and both are divisive, combative, and bad. However, I present the flip-side of the coin merely to make a point. The demonizing of e-sports isn't going to happen here, and really with as fast as the popularity of e-sports is rising it's a losing battle anyway.

That is absolutely laughable that you got me demonizing it out of that post. I was saying that it should not be an arcade style game (which it really seems the esport groups that I have seen want). I also never said they were bad. In fact I even stated that they should cater specifically to that crowd. I do apologize that I offended your personal sensibilities but you took something from my post that was completely contrary to my point.

I don't mind that the esport community likes what they like and I very much believe they should get enjoyment out of things. When talking about Madden as an emulation of football though, I stand by my statement, it is a football game first, NOT a "multiplayer competitive interactive video game" first. Other games made by other studios and even different creative teams in the same studio take the sport first and the video game aspect second.

I will also point out that a point that was made is that "advice pertaining to gameplay MUST come ONLY from esports players" am I seriously being "demonizing" and not allowed to refute that point by offering that the esport group shouldn't have a say if it is contrary to the actual sport? I am not being combative, I did not blaspheme anyone (though I see it was taken that way), so again my apologies but nothing I said was out of context when literally the exact opposite is point was made that I was referring to, but that statement is okay?