After watching madden 17, i still feel like its ratings need to be spread

[Allball76]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

It's my opinion that the data that Madden should be using to produce player ratings is stuff that isn't publicly available - not FO, not PFF, certainly not fantasy stats - but stuff that EA should have better access to by virtue of the NFL exclusive license. Specifically I'm referring to professional football player scouting reports from sources such as BLESTO or National. These are the actual scouting organizations that the vast majority of NFL teams use as their baseline knowledge set for grading players (they supplement it with their own in-house scouting efforts). The common thread is that these sources evaluate a player individually and quantitatively with as little influence from game day performances as possible. Example, a receiver's "route running" grade wouldn't be determined at all from how often he was targeted (i.e. got open) in games, and it certainly wouldn't be determined by receiving yards or touchdowns. Rather the player is isolated as much as possible from the statistics - scouts study is release off the line, his footwork in his route stem, ability to use his hands to beat press coverage, ability to not tip his hand about the break of his route before he makes his cut... all the stuff happens before the receiver even has a chance to catch the ball, that's what determines a player's "route running" grade. Not stats, not analytics, just film study and assessment by watchful eyes trained to make such assessments. The data set which powered Dan's FBGratings rosters, to the best of my understanding, doesn't come from either BLESTO or National, but comes from a similar professional football scouting source which grades players individually.

My thoughts going FWD I think there gonna change ratings :

Clint interview :
Clint Oldenburg – a former NFL lineman – about details big and small for the title.

1) We're hearing more about analytics all the time – websites like Pro Football Focus are popular with fans. Do analytics have a place in Madden, and could they replace the traditional player ratings?

I think there's definitely a place for analytics, and I think where that place lies and where it's going – at least in terms of Madden – is those, I don't want to call them intangibles, but your traits. What you do well. I think where ratings are really important are size, speed, strength – things that are actually tangible, because we have to differentiate a really fast guy from a really slow guy. We have used outlets like Pro Football Focus in the past to assist us in rating our players, and they've been really helpful. But I think the right way to make our game perform the way we want it to perform is to rate these guys how we want them to act in our game. So, while a website may tell us a defensive end is really good in situation A, B, and C, well, to make that happen in our game we have to rate him a certain way that works with our formulas.

[underdog13]

In the interview with the new ratings guy Dustin Smith he said they spread the ratings out more and changed the ovr calculations.

Sent from my VS980 4G using Tapatalk

[Yazan Gable]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Specifically I'm referring to professional football player scouting reports from sources such as BLESTO or National. These are the actual scouting organizations that the vast majority of NFL teams use as their baseline knowledge set for grading players (they supplement it with their own in-house scouting efforts). The common thread is that these sources evaluate a player individually and quantitatively with as little influence from game day performances as possible. Example, a receiver's "route running" grade wouldn't be determined at all from how often he was targeted (i.e. got open) in games, and it certainly wouldn't be determined by receiving yards or touchdowns. Rather the player is isolated as much as possible from the statistics - scouts study is release off the line, his footwork in his route stem, ability to use his hands to beat press coverage, ability to not tip his hand about the break of his route before he makes his cut... all the stuff happens before the receiver even has a chance to catch the ball, that's what determines a player's "route running" grade. Not stats, not analytics, just film study and assessment by watchful eyes trained to make such assessments.

Dunno if you know, but there's more to statistics and analytical study of players than total yards and touchdowns. These ratings will change as the year goes on because (shockingly) players end up playing better or worse than they were scouted or predicted to play and is influenced by their surroundings and circumstances. To think that film study and scouting is the only thing you need is absurd; these players don't play in a vacuum and the scheme supporting cast have a big part to play with regards to their effectiveness. They are constantly improving or becoming worse and statistics are very helpful in understanding how much better or worse a team is playing compared to perception and record.

Quote: Originally Posted by chunt04

As long as the ratings we chose could provide good analysis and separation of players (like in CM's previous post), and provide realistic sim stats for CPU teams in Franchise, we would have ourselves a winner. I would only want to take on the task of creating a roster if it was backed by real life data, as I am not going to waste my time creating something that is purely subjective and a matter of opinion.

A bit contradictory there, wanting scouting analysis and not "a matter of opinion."

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Yazan Gable

Dunno if you know, but there's more to statistics and analytical study of players than total yards and touchdowns. These ratings will change as the year goes on because (shockingly) players end up playing better or worse than they were scouted or predicted to play and is influenced by their surroundings and circumstances. To think that film study and scouting is the only thing you need is absurd; these players don't play in a vacuum and the scheme supporting cast have a big part to play with regards to their effectiveness. They are constantly improving or becoming worse and statistics are very helpful in understanding how much better or worse a team is playing compared to perception and record.

As someone who has personally built WPA / EPA / Success Rate calculators for personal use alongside my Madden franchises, I know full well there's more to analytics than fantasy stats.

The problem with every single football statistic is that no single statistic can grade a football player's peak abilities in isolation. Everything stat-wise in football is interconnected because a successful football play requires the execution of all 11 players on the side.

Example: a receiver can't put up good numbers - analytic or otherwise - if the offensive line doesn't protect the quarterback or the quarterback can't throw him the ball. His WPA and EPA can only change if he catches a pass. His yards per route run can only change if he catches a pass. His catch rate can only change if he has an opportunity to catch the ball. Even if a receiver does make a good play, there's a chance that the change in his stats - again, analytic or otherwise - could be nullified by a holding penalty.

Why should I penalize a receiver based on things outside of his control? Grading players individually and in isolation is the only fair and unbiased way to do it. Ability doesn't always translate into production, and production isn't 100% indicative of ability.

[Yazan Gable]

Almost like the inherent issue with trying to build these ratings is that every player's ability is influenced and related to another person's ability. Finding a single method to figure out the ratings of players is a problem; numerous sources need to be involved to figure out how good these players are and how much they are benefiting or hurt by their surroundings/scheme. When I suggested Football Outsiders as an example, I wasn't talking only DVOA. You need many more statistics to help get a good understanding of these players and teams, along with scouting reports and film work. To try and find a singular method, as you suggested, is a not an extensive way to do this. Players won't meet up to the standards of their scouting report or far exceed their scouting reports, players will do very well in the system they've been integrated into or start to suffer, and these things can't be resolved with "well, scouting report says he's good in a vacuum" when he's obviously doing terribly in their new situation. Alex Smith in a vacuum might be one rating, but put him in the Cardinals offense and you're going to have a player that should be lower. His ratings will need to reflect that in his play on that team since accounting for scheme is both woefully simplistic and will be less effective in Madden 17 CFM. How you balance this scheme aspect in non-CFM play I don't know, but it's a missing piece that, until it's resolved, needs to be represented in the ratings of the players.

[Allball76]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

As someone who has personally built WPA / EPA / Success Rate calculators for personal use alongside my Madden franchises, I know full well there's more to analytics than fantasy stats. The problem with every single football statistic is that no single statistic can grade a football player's peak abilities in isolation. Everything stat-wise in football is interconnected because a successful football play requires the execution of all 11 players on the side. Example: a receiver can't put up good numbers - analytic or otherwise - if the offensive line doesn't protect the quarterback or the quarterback can't throw him the ball. His WPA and EPA can only change if he catches a pass. His yards per route run can only change if he catches a pass. His catch rate can only change if he has an opportunity to catch the ball. Even if a receiver does make a good play, there's a chance that the change in his stats - again, analytic or otherwise - could be nullified by a holding penalty. Why should I penalize a receiver based on things outside of his control? Grading players individually and in isolation is the only fair and unbiased way to do it. Ability doesn't always translate into production, and production isn't 100% indicative of ability.

Like Tom Brady ? He was good very good then you add Randy Moss to the Pats there the best offence of all time and Brady looks unstoppable ! Some scheme, other players help a player reach his full potential !

[DCEBB2001]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

It's my opinion that the data that Madden should be using to produce player ratings is stuff that isn't publicly available - not FO, not PFF, certainly not fantasy stats - but stuff that EA should have better access to by virtue of the NFL exclusive license. Specifically I'm referring to professional football player scouting reports from sources such as BLESTO or National. These are the actual scouting organizations that the vast majority of NFL teams use as their baseline knowledge set for grading players (they supplement it with their own in-house scouting efforts). The common thread is that these sources evaluate a player individually and quantitatively with as little influence from game day performances as possible. Example, a receiver's "route running" grade wouldn't be determined at all from how often he was targeted (i.e. got open) in games, and it certainly wouldn't be determined by receiving yards or touchdowns. Rather the player is isolated as much as possible from the statistics - scouts study is release off the line, his footwork in his route stem, ability to use his hands to beat press coverage, ability to not tip his hand about the break of his route before he makes his cut... all the stuff happens before the receiver even has a chance to catch the ball, that's what determines a player's "route running" grade. Not stats, not analytics, just film study and assessment by watchful eyes trained to make such assessments. The data set which powered Dan's FBGratings rosters, to the best of my understanding, doesn't come from either BLESTO or National, but comes from a similar professional football scouting source which grades players individually.

100% correct. PFF looks at the results of a play then determines the origin of the result. Scouts look at the origin by putting together the small pieces to then form a composite grade. One starts at the macro level and works downward. One starts at the micro level and works upward. It is very important that people understand the differences in grading methodology.

As for the FBG stuff, correct, this data comes directly from a team via NDA. However, the grading metrics are similar.

[briz1046]

Quote: Originally Posted by Allball76

Like Tom Brady ? He was good very good then you add Randy Moss to the Pats there the best offence of all time and Brady looks unstoppable ! Some scheme, other players help a player reach his full potential !

Exactly . Adding Moss to an already good team allowed Brady to showcase his skillset fully and see it expressed in the stats and win column
It didn't per se make him any better than he was before or after
Likewise Alex Smith thrives in his current set up but wouldn't in all likelihood have the same success in that Arians offense . However his skills and ability don't' change merely how those skills are translated in to success
Ratings should be measures of skills and abilities not of how well or badly they are utilised
How that data is collected to measure those skills is a subject for endless debate with in all probability no firm answer as all systems either scouting or analytical will have flaws and benefits
To be fair to Donny and the current team they do a fairly good job of blending such data with public perception