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Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Old 07-18-2016, 01:59 PM   #41
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Whether there is crossover between the audiences is not the point. My point is that the general audiences for Madden / NBA / MLB isn't as knowledgable on what the NFL is and how it works as you, me, or anyone else here on this forum is.
Wouldn't this logic need to be true for NBA2K and The Show? Don't they need to be attractive to the general audience? Yet they still have more authentic/realistic franchise modes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
Madden isn't special because it is a football video game, and there are certain components of video game design which are universal. If you want to argue that a video game doesn't need to engage its audience with engaging mechanics and strong feedback loops (which, to be clear, NBA 2K and MLB The Show both do this but in different ways), be my guest, but you voluntarily disqualify yourself from any serious conversation on this topic by doing so.
I'm not arguing that you don't need to engage the audience or that engaging mechanics are not important. My point is that both NBA2K and The Show have very engaging mechanics AND their franchises are much more authentic to their sport. That's not a difficult concept to understand. Either you are completely ignoring the point, or you are just having a very difficult time understanding it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by CM Hooe
This isn't a "with you or against you" issue. What I offered was constructive criticism for Deuce to help him make his idea better from the perspective of someone who actually makes video games and gets paid for it. Whether he values that feedback, who knows, but forgive me for offering him feedback to help him make his good ideas better because I am not going to apologize for doing so.
His "good ideas better" is somewhat subjective. I'm not looking for you to apologize, just to recognize that NBA2K and The Show franchises work and are much more authentic than Madden, and could also work in Madden.

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Old 07-18-2016, 02:17 PM   #42
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Originally Posted by briz1046
If you assume the average Madden potential buyer is a video game fan with a passing interest in football i would agree with your criticism however i feel it's just as likely if not more so that he or she is an avid NFL fan with a passing interest in video games .
Maybe EA know have access to information to distinguish ?
They definitely do. They also have metrics about how deep into franchise people go, what they engage with, etc.
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Old 07-18-2016, 02:22 PM   #43
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Originally Posted by mrprice33
They definitely do. They also have metrics about how deep into franchise people go, what they engage with, etc.
You mind elaborating on the bold and what data you are referring to there. That they have data on the type of NFL interest Madden gamers have or whatever.
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Old 07-18-2016, 04:14 PM   #44
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Deuce, first off great and long post. Would love to play a CFM with that depth.

Your section on injuries has a similar look to the NHL injury report and the decreased ratings based on the area of injury as well as the player being able to play (with the reduced ratings) until the injury is fully healed, but subject to increased chance of another more serious injury. Would love to see this injury system make it in to Madden.

I'd also like to see the occasional Canadian prospect make it in to the draft (the ones playing in Canadian colleges, not the ones playing in NCAA programs) and the draft team make mention of such. It would be neat to see players in Free Agency that are making an NFL comeback after playing north of the border for a year or so (Warren Moon, Doug Flutie, Cameron Wake, Chris Matthews, Delvin Breaux, Brandon Browner, etc, etc).
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Old 07-18-2016, 07:57 PM   #45
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Can we sticky this? Put a checklist on the bottom of the OP so that we can see how many years it takes to get all of that on madden. Seriously though, great post.
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Old 07-19-2016, 04:09 AM   #46
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

Quote:
Originally Posted by briz1046
If you assume the average Madden potential buyer is a video game fan with a passing interest in football i would agree with your criticism however i feel it's just as likely if not more so that he or she is an avid NFL fan with a passing interest in video games.
Maybe EA know have access to information to distinguish ?
If the core audience for Madden NFL was predominantly the hardest of the hardcore football fans as is often alleged, I would venture to guess Ultimate Team would not be as popular as it is - given how often I've seen its mere existence bemoaned on this forum - and it would not be the sole focus of the game's preorder campaigns. You don't need to understand the salary cap, the draft, free agency, or anything else to learn Ultimate Team. It is far and away a more accessible mode.

As to metrics - Tiburon most assuredly has all those, as Mr. Price mentioned.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:13 AM   #47
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
@CMHooe, it's illogical to suggest that a NFL simulation video game should be generally designed to NOT replicate NFL elements to attract gamers and equally so in a NFL based mode like CFM within the game.
Are you suggesting that Madden NFL is not designed with the NFL experience in mind? I beg to differ.

I assume you are concluding this presumably because I have the audacity to say "XP-based gameplay loops are good game design and I have 40 years of video game history backing me up" is presumptuous. The concept of football isn't special enough to require an alternative core game loop.

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You and EA Tib have this twisted and backwards
Both the designers and Tiburon and I - they moreso than I by virtue of having many years of experience up on me - have opinions informed by careers built in the video game industry. If you from your position without this experience think those informed opinions are twisted and backwards, feel free to make your own game and prove the entire industry wrong. You'll make yourself a multi-millionaire if you succeed.

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Madden the NFL [...] video game in general and specifically CFM should be NFL representative to the nth degree, while various options and other modes should be provided to cater to various types of gamers. Both the NFL and NFL multi-year Franchise actually exist in real life, so those should be emulated in Madden, while modes like MUT and DC, which don't exist in the real NFL, are invented video game modes, can be designed however, to cater to whomever.
Video games, even sports video games, aren't designed to only appeal to the hardest of the hardcore. AAA video games in the general case don't survive unless they grow their audience. Madden is not immune from this. In order for franchise mode to survive and thrive, in order for it to continue to see dev time to get to the depth this community wants, it needs ensure it can grow its audience. That means designing the mode to engage users who previously haven't played it, be it for prior lack of knowledge of how to play, lack of interest, intimidation by the many walls-of-text the mode previously threw at the player, and so on.

Look at all the features added into franchise for Madden 17 and you will clearly see a theme of opening the mode up to more users with less knowledge. The core mechanics engage these new users with football-agnostic game mechanics backed by 40 years of video game history, game mechanics which don't require football knowledge to understand. Over the course of time the game feeds users the football knowledge they need to succeed in the football-specific components of the game. You also see a theme of providing users the tools and information they need to make relevant franchise gameplay decisions faster and more decisively - be it injury returns, contracts, what have you - and also ensuring the user always has a reason to engage with the mode each week of his team's season, so he keeps booting up the game to play.

Franchise mode is not a sacred ground for sim players only, and it is not a mode which should only ever cater to sim players' interests. That's an incredibly selfish attitude towards game design and it's also a position which isn't commercially viable. If you want to make a successful video game, you need to make a game which other people want to play, not just what you want to play. I know this, and I've very clearly illustrated that Tiburon also knows this. Feel free to suggest that Tiburon growing the total audience for their game and making a more successful and more well-rounded product is a bad idea, though.
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Old 07-19-2016, 05:39 AM   #48
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Re: Connected Franchise Mode: A Rebuild

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Originally Posted by bucky60
recognize that NBA2K and The Show franchises work
If you want me to be real about it, with respect to my personal experience with NBA 2K (I have none with The Show) - no, NBA 2K's franchise mode does not work. I have never completed a single season of NBA 2K. In a single-player franchise setting I've never even reached the all-star break.

The mode doesn't hold me for that long because it is a slog and a grind through lots of games which don't individually feel important. Yes, the mode has all the authenticity nods in the world, and NBA 2K's franchise mode indeed has more authentic out-of-game mechanics than Madden does - be it Bird rights / player options / team options on contracts, player morale, more robust play injuries, owner media credibility, multi-team trades, summer leagues, presentation bells and whistles, I'm sure I'm missing a bunch of other things - but what good are all those things if the game can't keep me engaged in the core experience long enough to finish even half a season? If I'm never touching these things, do they even exist? How valuable are these things if I never see them, really?

The changes to Madden's franchise mode upcoming for this year, on the other hand, I'm looking forward to more than ever, because the game will actively give me reasons to keep coming back on top of the core loops which already exist. It doesn't entirely rely on me to build my own narratives like most sports games do, it will present the important action items to me, tell me why they are important, and tell me the real consequences of my decisions on the game state. The game will also actively facilitate my touching all of its pieces by helping me get through games faster. Getting through several seasons and touching all the parts of the mode is a very reasonable possibility for me now, and the game will keep actively motivating me to want to do this.

A game that actively motivates me to keep playing it has a better design than a game that doesn't.
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